Student shot at Georgia Tech

[French G.]

People, these were cops. If they see a day-old kitten in your hand, they treat it like a deadly weapon.

Yes, for all of our high quality poor taste humor it was a simple puzzle. Something in hand, ignores orders, advances. While I might hope for a cool headed veteran cop who deescalates the situation when I have a mental break the reality is most cops will see the preconditions met and shoot. Which is why with a Lily white criminal record I keep my hands on the steering wheel.

[wmenorr67]

People, these were cops. If they see a day-old kitten in your hand, they treat it like a deadly weapon.

More so Campus Police, so may not of had the same training as other officers.

[K Frame]

Had something of a similar incident happen here in Northern Virginia last Friday. Only, no gender confusion. Just lots of weird stuff coming out about the family. Coworker has a daughter in the same school, and apparently it's really hit the school hard because the kid was popular.

What I've gleaned is that the kid apparently made a suicide attempt a few days before. The family supposedly did nothing to address it. Friday he calls police, telling them he's holding a family member hostage and that he's wearing a bomb.

Police respond and apparently the kid approaches them with a crowbar, leading one officer to shoot him.

Of course, the family is up in arms, saying the shooting was unnecessary.

I know the local police have Tasers, and I'm wondering if one of them was deployed, and if not, why not.

There's not a lot of information coming out of anyone about this shooting right now.

[griz]

The reason I point this out is when I first heard the story, it said the kid had a knife.  Then, the descriptions I heard this morning seemed to be downplaying the knife angle to the point where it caught my attention.  Just wondering if this is deliberate spin or not...

The report I heard (NPR) said Scout (they worded it to avoid saying "it" or "they" which apparently was what Scout preferred) had a "small knife".  I too thought it was interesting that they would make that distinction when the tool was still capable of being used as a weapon and would not be allowed in a high school.  People they interviewed said the cop should have used a used a non lethal weapon, recognized that they were dealing with a disturbed individual, and also that they should have sent an officer trained in negotiation and counseling.  I guess that puts a big responsibility on the dispatcher who, relying on third hand info in a stressful situation, needs to determine the lethality of the weapon, the intent and mental state of the person doing the threatening, and correct pronouns to use, then quickly summon the perfect officer for the job.  Or they could use the Bat Signal.

[dogmush]

I know the local police have Tasers, and I'm wondering if one of them was deployed, and if not, why not.
 

Not sure running a bunch of electrical voltage through someone allegedly wearing a bomb would be my first choice.

[KD5NRH]

People they interviewed said the cop should have used a used a non lethal weapon, recognized that they were dealing with a disturbed individual, and also that they should have sent an officer trained in negotiation and counseling.

Aside from the ones like Jonathan Aledda, most cops don't shoot people who aren't disturbed.  Something about non-disturbed people doing what they're told when they have guns pointed at them, you know.

[K Frame]

Not sure running a bunch of electrical voltage through someone allegedly wearing a bomb would be my first choice.

You'd thing that the same would apply to putting a slug, or slugs, into the chest of someone who said that they had a bomb strapped to their.... chest.

[T.O.M.]

I'm starting to hear interesting rumblings from the usual crowd again about disarming police, or following the UK model of having unarmed patrol officers with armed response teams for back-up.  Or placing a rifle in the cruiser trunk that can be accessed "if it's really needed".  In terms of the Ga. Tech, shooting, the crowd noise is that it isn't that hard to take a knife away from someone using a "night stick", so there's no need to shoot someone armed only with a knife.  And, when someone talks about the risks of dealing with someone armed with a knife or impact weapon, the response is "that's what they get paid to do."

I find it both surprising and unsurprising that educated people (still) think that what they see in the movies and on television is realistic.  A man approaches with a knife in hand, you just need to grab his wrist, twist his arm, and he'll drop the knife.  No problem.  Someone has a pistol?  Shoot him in the leg, and he'll drop the gun, and you can arrest him, take him to the hospital where they'll put a band aid on the hole, and sunshine and rainbows and all that crap.

[Perd Hapley]

I find it both surprising and unsurprising that educated people (still) think that what they see in the movies and on television is realistic.  A man approaches with a knife in hand, you just need to grab his wrist, twist his arm, and he'll drop the knife.  No problem.  Someone has a pistol?  Shoot him in the leg, and he'll drop the gun, and you can arrest him, take him to the hospital where they'll put a band aid on the hole, and sunshine and rainbows and all that crap.

Those are the same shows where police aim their weapons at people for any or no reason, and no one seems to care. Having a dispute with a fellow officer? Aim your gun at his head to let him know you're serious. Etc.

[MechAg94]

Those are the same shows where police aim their weapons at people for any or no reason, and no one seems to care. Having a dispute with a fellow officer? Aim your gun at his head to let him know you're serious. Etc.

Then cock the hammer on the double action pistol to let them know you are really, really double serious. 

Of course, it you were really, really, really, really triple serious, you would cock the hammer on your glock.

[MechAg94]

Honestly, the cops had some sort of magical stun gun like in Star Trek, these people would still complain about getting stunned.  Any application force or coercion by police will be met with complaints about how much force/coercion was used.  And none of the politicians or media will point out that none of it would have happened if the person who got shot/tased/beat had not done what they did first.

Not sure if it was mentioned, but I thought I heard the cops were initially contacted by the person who was shot who told them there was someone with a knife running around. 

[griz]

Aside from the ones like Jonathan Aledda, most cops don't shoot people who aren't disturbed.  Something about non-disturbed people doing what they're told when they have guns pointed at them, you know.

Certainly agree with that.  I would bet that an officer has never been attacked by a person that wasn't disturbed in some way.

[Perd Hapley]

Honestly, the cops had some sort of magical stun gun like in Star Trek, these people would still complain about getting stunned.  Any application force or coercion by police will be met with complaints about how much force/coercion was used.

Case in point:

Yesterday's St Louis Post-Dispatch ran a couple of stories about the police being too mean to the protestors racist lynch mob, the night before. Today's Post-Dispatch, for the first time since Friday night, has no new riots or protest-related violence to report.  

[Hawkmoon]

I know the local police have Tasers, and I'm wondering if one of them was deployed, and if not, why not.

I believe the maximum non-contact range for the police Taser is 35 feet (and not all models provide that range -- I was going to write 25 feet until I looked it up). That's closer than I would want a bomb going off. If a guy claiming to be wearing a bomb was approaching me and refused to stop when ordered, I'd pull the trigger. Think Tueller Drill -- if 21 feet is too close for a guy holding a knife, what IS a safe distance for a guy wearing a bomb?

[KD5NRH]

Now that I'm thinking about Aledda, wasn't he white?  And utterly indefensibly shot an unarmed, compliant black man, so WTF is keeping BLM from rioting over that one?

[grampster]

Chris above mentioned "night stick".  I think they were phased out years ago.  I believe LE went to the ineffective metal expandable gizmos and then mace and now the electrical alleged stun jobbies that don't really seem to work on the drugged or the crazy or the combined drug and crazy who are usually the critters that are violent.  I still have mine out in the garage somewhere.  Black cherry wood, custom made for me by a local fruit farmer circa 1965 iirc.  I was trained how to use it by Old Heads and actually learned how to twirl it like the old beat cops did.  I used that implement a number of times in a number of different ways in order to effect (or affect ) an arrest.  Some were bloody and some weren't.  It usually meant me winning as my old Lt. told me, "They don't pay you enough to lose."  

Sadly, cops have been relegated to being social workers.  They are hired not for the ability to do the job, mainly because the bosses don't really know what the job is nowadays, but to fill quotas of so called racial minorities, females, trans-genders, gays, vertically challenged, horizontally challenged, follically challenged, (I don't think they have included the quadriplegics yet and that's a shame.) the toothless, those with outsized feet and the list goes on.  The training is poor because they are trained to be social workers, not to do the dirty work that lands in their laps and might embarrass their bosses and the local politicos in this 21st century land of ignorance and bliss.  I don't mean this as denigrating good police officers, but some of their peers are sorely lacking and it shows.  Sadly, it's probably not their fault either.

If the police officer who shot "Scout" had a proper nightstick and knew how to use it, he might just not have found the need to shoot.  But that could be bloody and untidy.  We can't have that, so shoot.   I once was confronted with a 15 year old kid in a back yard, who I figured out was quite mentally disturbed, who had been walking around a neighborhood, walking into houses and scaring people, mainly because he had a machete and was babbling.
He was close enough to me to be troublesome, probably 25 feet or so.  I disarmed him with my nightstick with no damage to him or me.  I'm not saying I was right.  I could have easily shot him.  He was quite out of it.  But I had a proper nightstick and knew how to use it.  It ended well.

[HeroHog]

Nightstick VS. a machete? Oh HELL naw!

[K Frame]

I believe the maximum non-contact range for the police Taser is 35 feet (and not all models provide that range -- I was going to write 25 feet until I looked it up). That's closer than I would want a bomb going off. If a guy claiming to be wearing a bomb was approaching me and refused to stop when ordered, I'd pull the trigger. Think Tueller Drill -- if 21 feet is too close for a guy holding a knife, what IS a safe distance for a guy wearing a bomb?

Good point on the distance. Be interesting to know how far away they were when the kid was shot.

[T.O.M.]

Chris above mentioned "night stick".  I think they were phased out years ago.  I believe LE went to the ineffective metal expandable gizmos and then mace and now the electrical alleged stun jobbies that don't really seem to work on the drugged or the crazy or the combined drug and crazy who are usually the critters that are violent.  I still have mine out in the garage somewhere.  Black cherry wood, custom made for me by a local fruit farmer circa 1965 iirc.  I was trained how to use it by Old Heads and actually learned how to twirl it like the old beat cops did.  I used that implement a number of times in a number of different ways in order to effect (or affect ) an arrest.  Some were bloody and some weren't.  It usually meant me winning as my old Lt. told me, "They don't pay you enough to lose."  

Sadly, cops have been relegated to being social workers.  They are hired not for the ability to do the job, mainly because the bosses don't really know what the job is nowadays, but to fill quotas of so called racial minorities, females, trans-genders, gays, vertically challenged, horizontally challenged, follically challenged, (I don't think they have included the quadriplegics yet and that's a shame.) the toothless, those with outsized feet and the list goes on.  The training is poor because they are trained to be social workers, not to do the dirty work that lands in their laps and might embarrass their bosses and the local politicos in this 21st century land of ignorance and bliss.  I don't mean this as denigrating good police officers, but some of their peers are sorely lacking and it shows.  Sadly, it's probably not their fault either.

If the police officer who shot "Scout" had a proper nightstick and knew how to use it, he might just not have found the need to shoot.  But that could be bloody and untidy.  We can't have that, so shoot.   I once was confronted with a 15 year old kid in a back yard, who I figured out was quite mentally disturbed, who had been walking around a neighborhood, walking into houses and scaring people, mainly because he had a machete and was babbling.
He was close enough to me to be troublesome, probably 25 feet or so.  I disarmed him with my nightstick with no damage to him or me.  I'm not saying I was right.  I could have easily shot him.  He was quite out of it.  But I had a proper nightstick and knew how to use it.  It ended well.

I used "night stick" because that's what I've heard used.  I know that the collapsible batons are what is used now...if at all.  Sprays and Tasers have pretty much eliminated batons of any kind from the duty belts I see around the courthouse.  And, I agree that is too bad.  No, I don't want to go baton vs. knife.  I'm too old for that crap.  But having another less-lethal option can't be a bad thing.

[just Warren]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_catcher

Maybe without the spikes though. Maybe add a bit of voltage to it?

[MechAg94]

I used "night stick" because that's what I've heard used.  I know that the collapsible batons are what is used now...if at all.  Sprays and Tasers have pretty much eliminated batons of any kind from the duty belts I see around the courthouse.  And, I agree that is too bad.  No, I don't want to go baton vs. knife.  I'm too old for that crap.  But having another less-lethal option can't be a bad thing.

I think we have discussed here before that many jurisdictions require taser use before any physical contact/fight.  To me, it is simple logic that if police had a truly useful weapon in addition to their sidearm, they would use it.  These days, Rodney king would have been tased and shot dead instead of just getting the snot beat out of him.

[makattak]

I think we have discussed here before that many jurisdictions require taser use before any physical contact/fight.  To me, it is simple logic that if police had a truly useful weapon in addition to their sidearm, they would use it.  These days, Rodney king would have been tased and shot dead instead of just getting the snot beat out of him.

There's another interesting thought:

How much of the taser over-use and bias towards firearm use is due to how much worse a beating looks on video?

I wonder if this is another example of how lawyers have changed our culture for the worse. Do police only rarely go "hands-on" with a suspect because that might look worse (to a jury) than just shooting him?

Using physical force leaves all kinds of room for whether it was too much force and lots of armchair quarterbacking. Shooting means you feared for your life so you ended the threat. Murky justifications vs. a clear standard that can't be debated, only whether it was the standard applies.

[dogmush]

I think we have discussed here before that many jurisdictions require taser use before any physical contact/fight.  To me, it is simple logic that if police had a truly useful weapon in addition to their sidearm, they would use it.  These days, Rodney king would have been tased and shot dead instead of just getting the snot beat out of him.

I'll admit that my use of force training is Military not Law Enforcement (although that line seems more blurred than it used to be), but I've NEVER received or heard of training that requires that.   Most Escalation of Force policies explicitly say that you can skip steps if you feel it's needed.  Requiring a Taseing before one can grab or restrain someone would be expensive (in terms of taser cartridges), and lawsuit bait.

Going "Hands On" (or "Asp On") is generally avoided not only because of the optics, but because it's very dangerous to both sides of the encounter, requires quite a bit more training and practice on the part of the officer to use effectively (and safely.  Remember Officer donut muncher that suffocated that guy while "hands on").

Nightsticks and Asps are pretty damn brutal weapons.  I carried an Asp for a while working security at bars, and every time it got employed involved both broken bones and a lawsuit.  I promise, you would rather be tased then worked over with a nightstick.

[MechAg94]

I think I remember seeing that as a taser was considered better and more harmless than using physical pain compliance.  Some cities had odd procedures for cops to use in order to avoid videos showing up of their officers beating the snot out of people.  Back in the day, if cops took down a druggie with a nightstick to get him off the street, no one gave a damn.  These days, the drugged up criminal becomes an innocent lamb the weak politicians run for cover.

I agree with your point about Nightsticks and Asps being brutal, but so is shooting them.  Also, some people seem to think everything is okay as long as no one dies which leaves a LOT of room for serious injury. 

[Boomhauer]

Rodney King was tased. It had no effect.