Author Topic: Government double-speak, Argentinean style  (Read 4922 times)

Hawkmoon

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Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« on: November 18, 2017, 01:01:33 AM »
Apparently Argentina may have one less submarine in its Navy than it did a few days ago:

http://www.newser.com/story/251753/nasa-joins-search-for-missing-argentinian-submarine.html

"It's not lost -- we just can't find it."
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2017, 06:41:23 AM »
Doesn't look too good.
This submariner will continue to think positive thought for now.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

230RN

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2017, 10:07:14 AM »
Quote
“We are praying to God and asking that all Argentinians help us to pray ... that they can be found,” the brother of one crew member says. The submarine's crew includes Argentina's first female submarine officer.

Interesting.  No gender offense, but I thought that traditionally, a female aboard a warship was considered bad luck, especially WRT submarines.

Oh, and WRT "government doublespeak."

Quote
“The latest official and reliable information is that the submarine has not yet been found," navy spokesperson Enrique Balbi says. "It’s not that it’s lost: to be lost you’d have to look for it—and not find it." The submarine has not activated its emergency beacon.

There may have been some kind of linguistic error here.

There are two senses of lost.  One, as in I lost my car keys (I don't know where they are), the other as in the Japanese lost four aircraft carriers and we lost only one in the Battle of Midway (they've been sunk, destroyed).

Anyhow, what's the latest on it?  Was it "lost" or was it just "lost?"

Terry
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 10:42:02 AM by 230RN »

TommyGunn

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2017, 11:43:33 AM »
Lost...as in GONE.  SUNK.   HISTORY. 
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2017, 11:44:28 AM »
Interesting.  No gender offense, but I thought that traditionally, a female aboard a warship was considered bad luck, especially WRT submarines.

Oh, and WRT "government doublespeak."

There may have been some kind of linguistic error here.

There are two senses of lost.  One, as in I lost my car keys (I don't know where they are), the other as in the Japanese lost four aircraft carriers and we lost only one in the Battle of Midway (they've been sunk, destroyed).

Anyhow, what's the latest on it?  Was it "lost" or was it just "lost?"

Terry


The US now has female officers and enlisted serving on submarines.
I am so glad that started after I was off the boats.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

230RN

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2017, 11:53:20 AM »
The US now has female officers and enlisted serving on submarines.
I am so glad that started after I was off the boats.


How utterly diplomatic.  Veddy good, suh.   >:D


just Warren

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2017, 02:53:02 PM »
I hate the ocean and I'm a bit claustrophobic. The very idea of a submarine provides some unpleasantness to my janglies.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2017, 05:10:48 PM »
I hate the ocean and I'm a bit claustrophobic. The very idea of a submarine provides some unpleasantness to my janglies.

Some folks got it, some folks don't.
It does take a certain kind of crazy.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

HankB

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2017, 09:41:34 PM »
The US now has female officers and enlisted serving on submarines.
I am so glad that started after I was off the boats.

You never heard of "Operation Petticoat?"   
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2017, 09:51:36 PM »
Great movie, lots of hollywood. And, even though the every event n the movie is based on fact, they just didn't all happen to the same boat.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Hawkmoon

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2017, 12:10:06 AM »
The Argentinian government still hasn't declared the sub lost, but they seem to agree that it's not exactly found, either.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/19/missing-argentina-submarine-sent-seven-failed-satellite-calls-search
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just Warren

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2017, 12:56:05 AM »
Obviously subs need to be designed to be easier to find.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2017, 10:54:50 AM »
Obviously subs need to be designed to be easier to find.

Or to not sink if they spring a leak when ... under .......... water ............... ummmm ...
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2017, 12:59:06 PM »
Looking at a couple of photos of that sub when it was in port is scary. The sail looks like an old 18th century warship (like the USS Constitution) used it for cannon practice, bouncing round balls off it.

The vessel is nearly 40 years old, although it supposedly underwent a "refit" about ten years ago. To our resident submariner-  is there a life expectancy to submarine hulls? I know repeated pressurization/depressurization is a factor in the life of aircraft, wouldn't that apply to submarines, as well?


[Edit to add] I guess hull life is a consideration: http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2011/06/extending-hull-life.html

And it looks like beyond 30 years is not a great idea ...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 01:19:07 PM by Hawkmoon »
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French G.

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2017, 01:02:57 PM »
What you see isn't the pressure hull. Lot of our surface ship's look like that too, all the wave action and flexing leads to the outer skin being distressed in the spaces between the underlying structures.
AKA Navy Joe   

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dogmush

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 03:11:22 PM »
What you see isn't the pressure hull. Lot of our surface ship's look like that too, all the wave action and flexing leads to the outer skin being distressed in the spaces between the underlying structures.

That and the hitting of *expletive deleted*it.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2017, 03:16:39 PM »
It's not just hull life that is a factor. A submarine is an incredibly complex machine with a huge number of big moving parts. 3000 PSI hydraulics, 4500 PSI air systems thousands of valves for air water and hydraulics, hundred of hydraulic rams, miles and miles of piping, miles and miles of wiring. All of it subject to high stress on a routine basis. The boats I was on are pushed hard with an optempo that will wear out both machines and men in short order

Both of the boats I served in were getting old by the time I got to them.
The USS Haddo (SSN-604) had already been in active service only a few years less than I'd been alive. When I got there it was a tired boat ready for overhaul. I rode it through the yards at MINSY returning to the fleet in 1984. She was Decommed in 1991 with only 26 years active service. I had a chance to talk to a couple of guys that were on the decom crew, it was worn out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Haddo_(SSN-604)

The USS Flyin Fish (SSN-673) was a whopping 6 years newer. I got to it fairly fresh out of an overhaul  and rode it on 2 major deployments. Even fresh out of overhaul *expletive deleted*it was constantly breaking. Mostly it was little stuff but there were a few sphincter tightening events. It was Decommed less than 4 years after I left. It too was just flat wore out after 24 years active service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Flying_Fish_(SSN-673)

There is only so many times you can compress a hull. And yes when you take one deep the walls do close in on you. I've seen the old string between the frames trick many times.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

T.O.M.

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2017, 07:59:46 PM »
And RKL nicely describes why I picked the the Army, and Infantry at that.    :lol:
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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just Warren

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2017, 08:04:08 PM »
An infantry subterraine would be cool. What with the giant treads and the auger on the nose for burrowing into the ground.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:51 PM »
Both of the boats I served in were getting old by the time I got to them.
The USS Haddo (SSN-604) had already been in active service only a few years less than I'd been alive. When I got there it was a tired boat ready for overhaul. I rode it through the yards at MINSY returning to the fleet in 1984. She was Decommed in 1991 with only 26 years active service. I had a chance to talk to a couple of guys that were on the decom crew, it was worn out.

The USS Flyin Fish (SSN-673) was a whopping 6 years newer. I got to it fairly fresh out of an overhaul  and rode it on 2 major deployments. Even fresh out of overhaul *expletive deleted*it was constantly breaking. Mostly it was little stuff but there were a few sphincter tightening events. It was Decommed less than 4 years after I left. It too was just flat wore out after 24 years active service.

There is only so many times you can compress a hull. And yes when you take one deep the walls do close in on you. I've seen the old string between the frames trick many times.

And the articles I read said the Argies bought this boat from Germany in either 1983 or 1985 (I've seen both dates). Even if we use 1985, that makes her 32 years young. I have an uncomfortable feeling that they kept this one in service a few years too many.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 12:24:56 PM »
It's not just hull life that is a factor. A submarine is an incredibly complex machine with a huge number of big moving parts. 3000 PSI hydraulics, 4500 PSI air systems thousands of valves for air water and hydraulics, hundred of hydraulic rams, miles and miles of piping, miles and miles of wiring. All of it subject to high stress on a routine basis. The boats I was on are pushed hard with an optempo that will wear out both machines and men in short order

Both of the boats I served in were getting old by the time I got to them.
The USS Haddo (SSN-604) had already been in active service only a few years less than I'd been alive. When I got there it was a tired boat ready for overhaul. I rode it through the yards at MINSY returning to the fleet in 1984. She was Decommed in 1991 with only 26 years active service. I had a chance to talk to a couple of guys that were on the decom crew, it was worn out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Haddo_(SSN-604)

The USS Flyin Fish (SSN-673) was a whopping 6 years newer. I got to it fairly fresh out of an overhaul  and rode it on 2 major deployments. Even fresh out of overhaul *expletive deleted*it was constantly breaking. Mostly it was little stuff but there were a few sphincter tightening events. It was Decommed less than 4 years after I left. It too was just flat wore out after 24 years active service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Flying_Fish_(SSN-673)

There is only so many times you can compress a hull. And yes when you take one deep the walls do close in on you. I've seen the old string between the frames trick many times.


My father served on a WW2 Diesel-electric, an old Gato class fleet sub, the Cavalla, after he got back from Korea in 1953-4.  The Cavalla was built about 1942, was credited with the sinking of one of the Japanese Carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor.  When my father served aboard the Cavalla it had received a new sail, hydrophone array, and had been reclasified as a "Hunter Killer."  At one point during its WW2 service it had been taken deeper than its theoretical crush depth and had developed a leak.
It still had this leak when my father served aboard.   This sub is now at a Naval Museum at Pelican Island in Galvaston Texas.
A book I own about WW2 Fleet Submarines recounts one submarine that had barely survived a Japanese depth charging.  It barely made it to the surface.  Upon cracking the hatch, the crew found the decking had been lost, and the pressure hull had been stoved in, "scalloping" the hull between the bulkheads.
That must have been a puckerfactor moment.... :O
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

BobR

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 12:44:06 PM »
And RKL nicely describes why I picked the the Army, and Infantry at that.    :lol:

As a submariner friend of mine likes to say about my choice to fly in the Navy rather than ride boats, "There's a lot more airplanes on the bottom of the ocean that there are submarines in the air." ;)

bob

Hawkmoon

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 06:17:56 PM »
As a submariner friend of mine likes to say about my choice to fly in the Navy rather than ride boats, "There's a lot more airplanes on the bottom of the ocean that there are submarines in the air." ;)

bob

That's because gravity only works in one direction ...
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KD5NRH

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 06:29:20 PM »
Too bad it's in the Atlantic.  If it was in the Pacific, a 7th Fleet destroyer would have run into it by now.

just Warren

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Re: Government double-speak, Argentinean style
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 07:21:27 PM »
Frigatefaboudit!
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