Author Topic: Net Neutrality  (Read 8770 times)

Nick1911

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2017, 04:31:55 PM »
I'd be really interested to see the social justice blowback if an ISP said, "Sorry, we're at capacity and not accepting new subscribers".

Other utilities go about this by charging a connection fee that covers infrastructure and processing upgrade.  For instance, where I live there is a one time $6,600 fee for connecting into the public sewer (Assuming a 3/4 water line coming in)

charby

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2017, 04:41:03 PM »
I remember talking to my ISP owner when I signed up for service, it's a local company owned by one guy and few employees. I mentioned this before but he provides wireless, where he has transmitters in various parts of town and you put a small dish on your house. (It is a line of sight and not everyone can get it, due to trees or buildings).

I asked who his Tier 2 providers are, he said depends on the part of town where he puts his transmitters but they are also competing Tier 3 providers, like Century Link and Mediacom. Both have Tier 2 "trunks" coming into town.
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charby

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2017, 04:42:15 PM »
Netflix pays for the bandwidth they consume from their provider.
Charby pays for the bandwidth he consumes from his provider.

The problem is Charby's provider is oversubscribed and sees a lot of traffic coming from a single, deep-pockets source, and are seeking to offset their poor capacity planning by finding a scheme to charge Netflix or penalize Charby by impacting his experience.

This is akin to airlines overselling their seats and then dragging passengers off after a thorough beating.

Chris

exactly, you described it better than I ever could.
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Firethorn

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2017, 04:42:43 PM »
I'd be really interested to see the social justice blowback if an ISP said, "Sorry, we're at capacity and not accepting new subscribers".

I've had that happen to me a few times.  Sucks for them, I went to the competition.

mtnbkr

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2017, 05:31:04 PM »
I'd be really interested to see the social justice blowback if an ISP said, "Sorry, we're at capacity and not accepting new subscribers".

Happens frequently.  When I first signed up for DSL, my neighborhood was oversubscribed, so I had to wait a few months until the carrier upgraded the local DSLAM.

Chris

Ben

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2017, 05:52:51 PM »
Happens frequently.  When I first signed up for DSL, my neighborhood was oversubscribed, so I had to wait a few months until the carrier upgraded the local DSLAM.

Chris

Have to say I've never seen it where I've lived. Pretty much everyone is trying to get you as a customer. Even out here in the boonies, microwave and sat won't leave you alone trying to get your business, depending on which one you're on. I'd be curious to see a national map of "surplus and demand" and see which regions go which way regarding broadband infrastructure keeping up with population.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2017, 06:06:07 PM »
Have to say I've never seen it where I've lived. Pretty much everyone is trying to get you as a customer. Even out here in the boonies, microwave and sat won't leave you alone trying to get your business, depending on which one you're on. I'd be curious to see a national map of "surplus and demand" and see which regions go which way regarding broadband infrastructure keeping up with population.

It may not be a thing with the various options we have now.  My anecdote was in the old days before smartphones and various wireless options became available to end users.  The scenario stands though, the end users at each end of the conversation can only use what they're contracted for.  For business class lines, you can burst over your subscribed rate, but you pay for the extra capacity.  The idea that Netflix is using more than their fair share is factually incorrect.  What is more accurate is they are attracting a number of users and the aggregate of these users is what causes the problem. 

While we use an entertainment company as the example, you can just as easily insert any content provider.  The intermediary network providers don't have to be oversubscribed, they can simply decide they're carrying content they disagree with or simply don't like and use the oversubscription argument as a way to control our access to the information.   We expect our carriers to not only NOT make judgement calls based on the content of our comms, we also expect them to use the money we pay them to manage their capacity and prevent the capacity argument from being a factor.  If their revenue doesn't allow for expansion, then they need to raise rates, not muck about with our access to those sites.  Doing otherwise is at odds with an open Internet.

The carriers occupy a space in business that essentially requires them to be a neutral party.  This is for their protection as well as ours.  By occupying this space, they are indemnified against responsibility for what traverses their circuits (terrorism-related traffic, criminal activity, etc).  If they are going to claim the right to analyze and control that traffic, then they should lose this protection and be treated like a responsible party.  They don't get it both ways.

Chris

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2017, 06:58:27 PM »
Locally we've got multiple options.
Telco DSL if you're close enough, best I could get was a marginal 3Mbps connection. Recently the area electric CoOp subsidiary made a big investment in fiber to the home, I could get up to 1 Gbps and option for TV and home phone, I took the 100 Mbps  package and It's been rock solid for going on three months now.
We also have (or had, not sure if they are still going) broadband over cable from the local cable TV provider.
There is also the satellite and a couple of line of sight operations.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2017, 08:50:17 PM »
This is akin to airlines overselling their seats and then dragging passengers off after a thorough beating.

More like an airline running a "one price anywhere" deal and then charging popular destinations to continue to serve them.

KD5NRH

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2017, 08:53:16 PM »
I'd be really interested to see the social justice blowback if an ISP said, "Sorry, we're at capacity and not accepting new subscribers".

We never had to do it when I worked for an ISP, but that was partly because when we hit a certain percentage and growth rate in an area, we'd shut down all marketing for that area.  Still got steady growth from customer referrals, but none of the big slams, so we were able to keep up.

cordex

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2017, 09:58:21 PM »
Netflix pays for the bandwidth they consume from their provider.
Charby pays for the bandwidth he consumes from his provider.
Yep.
But I bet that even with economy of scale, megabit for megabit Charby pays a small fraction of what Netflix pays for their guaranteed bandwidth.  Which leads to ...
The problem is Charby's provider is oversubscribed and sees a lot of traffic coming from a single, deep-pockets source, and are seeking to offset their poor capacity planning by finding a scheme to charge Netflix or penalize Charby by impacting his experience.
Sort of.  They're banking on not everyone maxing their bandwidth 100% of the time, sure.  It's infrastructure built to a price, but not because of poor capacity planning.  People prefer relatively cheap internet access over guaranteed bandwidth at the price that product commands.  If you want dedicated bandwidth, there are products that will meet that need. Just don't expect them to come nearly as cheap as your cable or DSL.
This is akin to airlines overselling their seats and then dragging passengers off after a thorough beating.
Not even remotely.  Do you even analogy, bro?  It's more like someone building a private toll road and advertising a speed limit of 100mph then during rush hour it actually drops to 45.  In this analogy, net neutrality forbids such a toll road from adding any additional lanes and dedicating them to people who pay an extra fee, or types of traffic that are more urgent.  Instead, they have to let everyone use all the lanes, even if that means that adding a lane only increases rush-hour speeds to 48mph.

Regardless, the whole net neutrality argument doesn't apply to the oversold ISP scenario.  That is completely unaddressed by net neutrality and happened plenty over the past couple years.  If anything, net neutrality guarantees those capacity-based slowdowns would continue as it makes resolution exponentially more difficult for ISPs.

cordex

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2020, 04:40:06 PM »
Just curious if anyone's internet has gotten tremendously worse in the past three years, or if you have to pay new, extra fees for Netflix, Youtube, etc?

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2020, 05:30:16 PM »
I smell a nothing burger.
The big provider that I'm most familiar with hasn't done much either way. I wasn't able to get decent broadband service from them so went with my local electric co-op when they ran fiber to the home several years ago. My discounted 3 mbps (more or less) cost me $10 a month less than my current 100 mbps (rock solid) does.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2020, 08:06:23 PM »
Just curious if anyone's internet has gotten tremendously worse in the past three years, or if you have to pay new, extra fees for Netflix, Youtube, etc?

No, but most of my friends died from bad internet.
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cordex

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2020, 08:13:24 PM »
No, but most of my friends died from bad internet.
I’m sorry fistful. Very sad.

My suburban internet had the speed boosted by a significant amount two years ago for no additional monthly fee, and I’m moving to a more rural property with gigabit internet. No new data caps or cost per service or any of the other horrific outcomes we were promised.

Ben

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2020, 09:36:22 PM »
Just curious if anyone's internet has gotten tremendously worse in the past three years, or if you have to pay new, extra fees for Netflix, Youtube, etc?

Mine has gotten better and cheaper. Part of that is my moving to a new location, but even back in CA, from 2017 to 2018, my fixed wireless bandwidth increased while price stayed the same.

My provider (surprise) doesn't make me pay more for Netflix and Youtube. Though those two entities have certainly raised their prices significantly in the past three years.
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MechAg94

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2020, 10:50:30 PM »
That is what caused COVID right? 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2020, 07:03:54 AM »
Net neutrality: there is very fine bandwidth on both sides.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2020, 10:41:37 AM »
That is what caused COVID right? 

No, that was the 5G towers.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams