Author Topic: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem  (Read 8647 times)

Hawkmoon

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Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« on: December 06, 2017, 12:28:43 PM »
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-expected-declare-jerusalem-capital-israel/story?id=51600561

I must say, the man has cajones.

Personally, I applaud the move, but I am concerned about what the reaction and response will be from our so-called "friends and allies" in the Arab world.

On the other hand, the Pope is opposed, so in my mind that almost automatically makes it the right thing to do. https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-francis-defends-jerusalem-status-quo-095403674.html The current Pope is a disgrace to the papacy.
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makattak

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 02:10:25 PM »
Personally, I applaud the move, but I am concerned about what the reaction and response will be from our so-called "friends and allies" in the Arab world.

Response? They'll get over it. It's all bluster. The "peace process" will be unaffected because the Palestinian leaders (and those who vote for them) don't want peace. They want dead Jews.
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charby

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 02:13:10 PM »
Palestine will bitch, some Arab nations might say a few harsh words in "support" of Palestine, but I don't see any of them stepping up to the plate to help the Palestinians.
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Pb

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 09:26:43 AM »
Once again, the mask slips and Trump reveals himself as literally Hitler.

 :mad:


dogmush

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 09:29:48 AM »
Once again, the mask slips and Trump reveals himself as literally Hitler.

 :mad:


I don't recall literal Hitler being this supportive of the Jews....

Pb

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 09:41:34 AM »
I don't recall literal Hitler being this supportive of the Jews....


Ron

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 11:22:06 AM »
One step closer to peace between Israel and Palestine.

The reality is that Jerusalem has been and is the capital of Israel.

Making the world live in reality actually helps the cause of peace IMHO.
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Scout26

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 12:36:02 PM »
Why would a White Supremist, Racist, Nazi recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc1d30mCHbo
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 04:56:49 PM »
One step closer to peace between Israel and Palestine.

The reality is that Jerusalem has been and is the capital of Israel.

Making the world live in reality actually helps the cause of peace IMHO.

I tend to agree.

What I find "interesting" is that the UN has come out against Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital.Yet it was the UN that created Israel in the first place. My history and geography are lacking. Was Jerusalem within -- or contiguous to/shared with -- the original boundaries of Israel, or was Jerusalem annexed by Israel as a result of the Six Days War?
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De Selby

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 11:50:33 PM »
I tend to agree.

What I find "interesting" is that the UN has come out against Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital.Yet it was the UN that created Israel in the first place. My history and geography are lacking. Was Jerusalem within -- or contiguous to/shared with -- the original boundaries of Israel, or was Jerusalem annexed by Israel as a result of the Six Days War?

That would be number 2.

This is about as much “reality” as the reality that Assad was falling to the FSA. There is so much foreign policy fail here it’s not even funny
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 05:56:11 AM »
I did some reading. The Six Days War annexed EAST Jerusalem. It appears that the original territory of Israel, as first established by the UN, included a chunk of Jerusalem, and the war just expanded it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Jerusalem
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Andiron

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 09:11:26 AM »
Passes my usual test,  "are all the right people howling about it?"  :cool:
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MechAg94

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 10:07:34 AM »
That would be number 2.

This is about as much “reality” as the reality that Assad was falling to the FSA. There is so much foreign policy fail here it’s not even funny
Not really.  The people who didn't like us still don't like us.  They were never going to likes us anyway so no point worrying about their feelings. 

That is one thing I never cared for about our foreign policy.  We throw our weight around on some things, but tip-toe with great care on others that are inconsequential in the long run. 
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De Selby

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2017, 09:30:05 AM »
Not really.  The people who didn't like us still don't like us.  They were never going to likes us anyway so no point worrying about their feelings. 

That is one thing I never cared for about our foreign policy.  We throw our weight around on some things, but tip-toe with great care on others that are inconsequential in the long run. 

You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??

This move was gift to Iran
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2017, 09:56:35 AM »
Would this even be an issue if Jordan et. all still owned East Jerusalem? Note to palestinian self, stop sucking at war.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2017, 10:35:08 AM »
You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??

This move was gift to Iran

If we're going to maintain a relationship with Turkey, somebody needs to get rid of Erdogan. It's a pity that coup attempt failed.
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dogmush

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2017, 12:28:17 PM »
You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??

This move was gift to Iran

We don't have a relationship with Saudi Arabia.  Or rather, we have a relationship where they do as they please and are ->just<- short of overtly hostile and we pretend they are our friends and would help us and our allies out without being expensively bribed each time.  We only get that much out of them because they know they need Fifth Fleet to smack the IRGN* down every now and then, and keep the Straights of Hormuz open in a shooting war.

Not saying Israel is an awesome ally, but at least if they help us in a war their forces are likely to be a net plus.

Besides, no intelligent person really thinks the Israel-Palestinian peace process is going to result in anything resembling peace anytime soon.  

This move doesn't change any of that, except give folks something to bicker about besides the shape of the conference table.


*ETA: Iranian Revolutionary Guard corps Navy.  Apologies to 230RN in advance.

MechAg94

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2017, 08:40:50 PM »
You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??

This move was gift to Iran
What dogmush said. 

If "maintaining a relationship" means continuing to play games with the Palestinians then there is no relationship.  We have tip toed around that issue for decades and it has never gotten us anywhere.  Turkey and Saudi Arabia don't give a crap about the Palestinians.  They are just a political tool against Israel and us. 
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De Selby

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2017, 10:04:26 PM »
What dogmush said. 

If "maintaining a relationship" means continuing to play games with the Palestinians then there is no relationship.  We have tip toed around that issue for decades and it has never gotten us anywhere.  Turkey and Saudi Arabia don't give a crap about the Palestinians.  They are just a political tool against Israel and us. 

The Saudis are allied with Israel. But their people don’t accept that alliance.

Mass protests (to the benefit of the Iranian aligned part of that world) are underway. I think it’s safe to conclude that they still care about the Palestinians.
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Regolith

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2017, 12:54:54 AM »
If we're going to maintain a relationship with Turkey, somebody needs to get rid of Erdogan. It's a pity that coup attempt failed.

I don't think there ever really was a coup. Given how poorly it was run, I think it was Erdogan's Riechstag Fire; he set it up to give him the excuse he needed to purge the military and government of any opposition.
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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2017, 02:20:51 AM »
I don't think there ever really was a coup. Given how poorly it was run, I think it was Erdogan's Riechstag Fire; he set it up to give him the excuse he needed to purge the military and government of any opposition.
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dogmush

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 07:51:38 AM »
Mass protests (to the benefit of the Iranian aligned part of that world) are underway. I think it’s safe to conclude that they still care about the Palestinians.

Some Saudi citizens care about Palestine in the same way American liberals care about causes. i.e. they are willing to make some noise and burn some tires, but aren't really going to do anything more. They expect the "government" to do something,

Also, in case you haven't spent much time there, mass protests are just what you do on the weekends in the mid-east. Anything that upset you during the week gets a chant and tire fire. They mean jack all as to what the countries might or might not do.

De Selby

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2017, 08:07:48 AM »
Some Saudi citizens care about Palestine in the same way American liberals care about causes. i.e. they are willing to make some noise and burn some tires, but aren't really going to do anything more. They expect the "government" to do something,

Also, in case you haven't spent much time there, mass protests are just what you do on the weekends in the mid-east. Anything that upset you during the week gets a chant and tire fire. They mean jack all as to what the countries might or might not do.

Sure. Except Israel has led to the formation of sizeable private armies including Palestinians and non-Palestinian arabs  over time, and in relation to Saudi Arabia was a key motivator for Al Qaeda. There are people risking their lives to fight that country in every single one of Israel’s neighbours.

I think it’s safe to say the issue is more than a pet cause across the region.
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dogmush

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Re: Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2017, 11:37:09 AM »
Sure. Except Israel has led to the formation of sizeable private armies including Palestinians and non-Palestinian arabs  over time, and in relation to Saudi Arabia was a key motivator for Al Qaeda. There are people risking their lives to fight that country in every single one of Israel’s neighbours.

I think it’s safe to say the issue is more than a pet cause across the region.

You've never spent any real time in the mid-east.  It shows.

Certainly Arab Muslims get upset, loud, and to western sensibilities violent over the issue of Palestine.  It ranks right up there with the 150 other issues Arab Muslims protest and fight about which include, but are not limited to, court verdicts they don't like, regional religious leader edicts, things in western newspapers, particularly egregious calls in soccer, and battles from 200BCE that there are only oral histories of.*

So, Yes, there are Saudi civilians that will protest, probably this week, about Israel, this move by Trump, and the "occupation" of Jerusalem.  No, recognizing the capital will not actually effect politics in the region on a timescale measured in months, much less years.

Here's the nasty, actual truth:  There will be no peace between Palestinian Muslims and Israeli Jews until one or the other is wiped out Carthage style.  The "owner" of Jerusalem is whomever won the last war, has been for centuries, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.  Whichever group lost the last war will use violence to try and win it back.  The idea that there can actually be peace that lasts between two such diametrically opposed cultures and traditions is a particularly Western conceit, and our blind resistance to that fact just kills more people and drags out the issue.

*Those are not exaggerations for effect.  I have personally seen mass demonstrations that killed multiple people over each of those issues.  I'm sure there are more examples.  I'm talking Tire fire barricades, burning of buildings, whole parts of cities shut down and running gun battles in the streets kind of "demonstrations".