Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem

[De Selby]

Dogmush, I don’t think a stint in SA is necessary to observe the broad based, visceral Arab belief in Palestinian rights.

It is not the case that opposition is limited to Muslims. Arab Christians, Arab communists, and pretty much all sects have had their own opposition groups. It is the one issue that consistently unites all religions in region.

It seems odd for you to claim that Arabs don’t really care, and then assert there will be no peace without Carthage style war.

The fairly obvious solution is to have a constitutional government in Israel that requires equal treatment at law irrespective of a person’s religion. Palestinians are among the most secular of Arab populations and essentially every grievance they have with Israel would be resolved by that rule.

Of course, you couldn’t have anything like the policies that exist now if you had religious equality there.

[dogmush]

There's that western conceit.

A medium to long stint in the mid east is necessary because it is the only way to actually grasp the differences in culture.

They don't really care but when reminded, or stirred up, will happily die or kill over it.  Arabs.

You really, really don't understand the mid-east till you live it.  It's a lot like Africa that way.  Seriously, the underlying assumptions you look at the world with don't apply to the mid-east. You are just wrong. It's why the West keeps *expletive deleted*ing up dealing with the mid-east.

[dogmush]

Dogmush, I don’t think a stint in SA is necessary to observe the broad based, visceral Arab belief in Palestinian rights.

Just to hammer the point home, this is why you are so very wrong.

[De Selby]

There's that western conceit.

A medium to long stint in the mid east is necessary because it is the only way to actually grasp the differences in culture.

They don't really care but when reminded, or stirred up, will happily die or kill over it.  Arabs.

You really, really don't understand the mid-east till you live it.  It's a lot like Africa that way.  Seriously, the underlying assumptions you look at the world with don't apply to the mid-east. You are just wrong. It's why the West keeps *expletive deleted*ing up dealing with the mid-east.

Sorry, but your appeal to personal experience doesn’t stack up against the facts available to everyone about the place.

There are prominent Christian and Atheist militants who say the exact same thing about Israel that Muslim groups do.  On the flip side, somehow Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, and everywhere else in the ME not ruled by a US backed dicrator manage to have Jewish populations that get along.

If your claims about the Arab mind were correct, that wouldn’t be possible. In fact the only places where it seems to be true are gulf monarchies, which again are essentially US client states.

[grampster]

When attempting to describe the Arab mindset, it's useful to read up on what folks who have lived there nearly all of their lives and have interacted with Arab/ME culture(s).  DeSelby oversimplifies things with his obviously biased political leanings.  One particular book to read that is helpful is The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones.

[RoadKingLarry]

*Those are not exaggerations for effect.  I have personally seen mass demonstrations that killed multiple people over each of those issues.  I'm sure there are more examples.  I'm talking Tire fire barricades, burning of buildings, whole parts of cities shut down and running gun battles in the streets kind of "demonstrations".

Are you sure you weren't in Chicago or St. Louis?

[dogmush]

Sorry, but your appeal to personal experience doesn’t stack up against the facts available to everyone about the place.

The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

As I said earlier, you lack the underlying cultural assumptions to even properly understand what you are reading about the folks in the mid-east. Attitudes like yours are what lead to the failure's of Hillary's State Department, and the continuing surprise in the west that they are still killing each other.

You, literally, don't even know what you don't know.

[agricola]

When attempting to describe the Arab mindset, it's useful to read up on what folks who have lived there nearly all of their lives and have interacted with Arab/ME culture(s).  DeSelby oversimplifies things with his obviously biased political leanings.  One particular book to read that is helpful is The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones.

that book is one of the most hypocritical texts ever written

[MechAg94]

that book is one of the most hypocritical texts ever written

What does the author being a Democrat have to do with it?    


 

[Scout26]

Trump understands that they (to include various Europeans and their leaders) will "dislike" us no matter what we do, so his attitude is "Screw You, I/We are going to do what is in America's best interest."

[MechAg94]

Trump understands that they (to include various Europeans and their leaders) will "dislike" us no matter what we do, so his attitude is "Screw You, I/We are going to do what is in America's best interest."

That is really where I come down on this.  Doing what makes Middle Eastern Muslims and their leaders happy is a rabbit hole with no end.  You can never do enough and they won't respect you for it anyway.  I feel like our country has been trying to walk that line in a number of ways in recent decades and it never seems to work out very well in the end.

[Scout26]

I would love for Tillerson to sit down with Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and say you will recognize Israel's right to exist you will make peace with Israel there will be a two-party settlement otherwise we cut off our funding and not only that we're going to talk to the Swiss, the Cayman Islands and any place else you have stashed money previously and we're going to take every last penny out of all your numbered bank accounts that you have hidden in stashed and cut you off afterwards and you'll either make peace are your people will hang you out to dry when they find out how much you've been embezzling from them.   We don't care....

[RoadKingLarry]

your people will hang you out to dry when they find out how much you've been embezzling from them.   We don't care....

Way passed time for that to have happened anyway. Expose the corruption of the leadership and let the chips fall where they may.

[De Selby]

Trump understands that they (to include various Europeans and their leaders) will "dislike" us no matter what we do, so his attitude is "Screw You, I/We are going to do what is in America's best interest."

Okay - how is this move in America’s best interests? I would love to hear someone articulate the tangible benefit to America of joining the Israelis in antagonising the entire Middle East.

[TommyGunn]

Those poor, poor, misunderstood mideasterners.

There won't be peace there until Israel is allowed to win the war against the Palestine Terrorists and stomp them into an alternate dimension...hopefully one full of bacon, pigs, and dogs.

[De Selby]

Those poor, poor, misunderstood mideasterners.

There won't be peace there until Israel is allowed to win the war against the Palestine Terrorists and stomp them into an alternate dimension...hopefully one full of bacon, pigs, and dogs.

Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it:  http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html

WASHINGTON, March 28 - President Reagan said today that it would be ''most unwise'' for the United States to move its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and he strongly suggested that he would veto legislation in Congress to require such a step.

In an interview, Mr. Reagan said a bill requiring the embassy to be moved ''should never have been introduced in Congress.'' He said the disposition of Jerusalem, the West Bank of the Jordan River and other areas ''must be negotiated'' between Israel and the Arab countries.

Asked if he would veto legislation on the embassy, the President said: ''I am hoping I won't have to. But like the several previous Presidents before me, I think that that is a most unwise thing.''

President Seems Relaxed

Although the Administration has opposed the legislation, Mr. Reagan has not addressed the issue publicly. He said the United States ''has no right to put itself in the position of trying to lean one way or the other on those areas for negotiation

But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...

[Hawkmoon]

Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it:  http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html

But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...

Well, that was thirty-three years ago. NOT moving the embassy in order to appease the mad dog pro-Palestinian faction doesn't appear to have accomplished much in three-plus decades, so why not try something else?

[makattak]

Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it:  http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html

But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...

Reagan wasn't Christ's second coming and has proven to have been wrong about a number of things. (Some, he repented of while still alive.)

In this, he was still dealing with the dispute as though it were between two honest brokers. It's not. The "Palestinians" want to drive the Jews into the sea. The rest of the Arabs hate the "Palestinians" and don't want them in their country, but so long as they can use them as a tool against the Jews, will support them "over there, but never in my backyard." Recognizing that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel ought to make the rest of the Middle East realize that Israel is a sovereign state and will not be negotiated away. That is what they want- Israel gone. Recognizing their proper capital is an indication that option is not on the table.

[TommyGunn]

Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it:  http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html

But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...

Too bad he's dead......


Wasn't he one of the president's who said he'd  recognize Jerusalem but didn't do it?   I forget....there were so many.....

[Scout26]

Last I checked every nation had the right to pick it's capital city.  Therefore, other nations that recognize that nation should have it's embassy in the capital of that nation.

 
Plus this:

Well, that was thirty-three years ago. NOT moving the embassy in order to appease the mad dog pro-Palestinian faction doesn't appear to have accomplished much in three-plus decades, so why not try something else?

And we should cut off the money to the PA and Hamas.  Fark 'em.

[MechAg94]

Well, that was thirty-three years ago. NOT moving the embassy in order to appease the mad dog pro-Palestinian faction doesn't appear to have accomplished much in three-plus decades, so why not try something else?

And that was before Israel offered them nearly everything they had ever asked for and they still walked away from the deal.

[grampster]

that book is one of the most hypocritical texts ever written

Have you ever read it?  Have you lived in the ME?  If so, how long.  It seems like a lot of credible reviewers disagree with you.  Pryce-Davies lived there.  The relatives that he lived with were diplomats and well connected.  I read the book right about the time of the first Gulf War.  The happenings around the world and in the ME since seem to indicate that Pryce-Davies experiences, insights and conclusions are mostly correct.  

To enlarge on the above.  If you would like a bit more information you might also pick up a writing by SCOTUS Justice Robert Jackson:  Law in the Middle East.  Get some more insight you will.  Also Andrew McCarthy had an interesting commentary on Islam.  Seems he needed to know as much about Islam as he could since he was chief prosecutor of The Blind Sheik.  He since has spent a good amount of time studying Islam.  You can find that in Imprimis, Feb. 2016, volume 45, number 2.

Perhaps DeSelby would be enlightened a bit by also boning up on reality a bit more.

[De Selby]

Last I checked every nation had the right to pick it's capital city.  Therefore, other nations that recognize that nation should have it's embassy in the capital of that nation.

 
Plus this:
And we should cut off the money to the PA and Hamas.  Fark 'em.

So tell me - how does the two state solution happen if Israel expands into the capital of the other state?

The PA gets money because it helps Israel manage the Palestinians. Hamas used to get money from Israel to fight secularists (which were the biggest threat to Israel’s image).  It gets no more.

[De Selby]

And that was before Israel offered them nearly everything they had ever asked for and they still walked away from the deal.

Factually incorrect - also on this point the Israelis rejected Reagan’s deal.

[slugcatcher]

And that was before Israel offered them nearly everything they had ever asked for and they still walked away from the deal.

My take on that was Arafat knowing that once he got everything he wanted would have to start taking responsibility for the general welfare of Palestine and it's people. That would have cut off his money train and shown how unqualified he was at anything more than a hustler and hate monger.  I've worked with a lot very intelligent and western educated scientists, mechanical and electrical engineers from the middle east, including some Palestinians.  The actual hatred for the Jews is mind boggling.  I pointed out how the muslims in Israel are out-breeding the Jews and pointed out to some of them that they could take over the country in legal elections in less than 75 years.  They all said that wasn't good enough.  They want the Jews to die.  I've had to work very closely with Egyptians, Saudis, Iranians (excuse me, Persians) Syrians, Turks, Yemenis, Tunisians, Algerians, Sudanese and more.  All of them I've met want the Jews gone.  If/When they get their collective wish they'll just move on the next group they're told to blame all their problems on. When they've purged the world of them and nothing but Muslims are left they'll go back to killing each other.