Trump to relocate embassy to Jerusalem

[De Selby]

Slugcatcher,

How do you explain Christian, Druze, and secular opposition to Israel in the ME?  Are all those religions and political movements anti semites like the Muslims?

[grampster]

De Selby, it seems it's pretty hard for you to counter the comments of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.  All you can do is deflect with drivel?   .

As for Israel moving its capital to Jerusalem:  What's to move? Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel over a couple thousand years before there was any media creation called Palestinians.  Israel has made several concessions of land and have agreed to a 2 state situation.   The only reason it hasn't happened is because of unmitigated hatred, Arab tribalist culture, and avarice, greed and lust for power of those in charge of the Arabs.

[De Selby]

De Selby, it seems it's pretty hard for you to counter the comments of someone who actually knows what he's talking about.  All you can do is deflect with drivel?   .

As for Israel moving its capital to Jerusalem:  What's to move? Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel over a couple thousand years before there was any media creation called Palestinians.  Israel has made several concessions of land and have agreed to a 2 state situation.   The only reason it hasn't happened is because of unmitigated hatred, Arab tribalist culture, and avarice, greed and lust for power of those in charge of the Arabs.

Hang on a second there.

When was the last time before the establishment of socialist Israel in the 20th century that Jerusalem was run by Israelis???

Also, can you identify a single piece of land that Israel gave in concession to anyone? Hint: I am asking that question knowing the answer. But I’d be happy to see a document that shows I’m wrong.

[dogmush]

Note:  This is in general, not just in relation to the mid east.  Applies to Apaches, Japan, and Argentina as well.


You want Land?  Win the war.

[De Selby]

Note:  This is in general, not just in relation to the mid east.  Applies to Apaches, Japan, and Argentina as well.


You want Land?  Win the war.

Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?

Did you have this same take on Northern Ireland, or States Rights in the US?

[Andiron]

Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?

I actually started to respond to that,  but then noticed it was you.

 Not teaching that pig to sing again.

[dogmush]

Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?

Pretty much, if they want to survive.  That's how wars work.  We're "civilized" enough these days that we don't enslave the women and children, but yeah.  That's why we have bases in Japan and Germany. 

I mean you can start (and/or add to) a generational feud, and some cultures are more likely than other to do so, and kick the sporty-ness back off when they think their guns are bigger.  But that's pretty much how the world works.  Strong folks make the rules until someone stronger comes along.

Did you have this same take on Northern Ireland, or States Rights in the US?

Don't you? 

Northern Ireland is calm(ish)* and part of the UK.  The southern states have had several generations of being smacked down and taking what the feds give them.  Being "rebellious" in the US is waving an old flag while paying a 30+% marginal tax rate.

*Belfast (another place I've personally gone to) still has the air of a city kinda on edge, and there are still walled neighborhoods, but the overall vibe of the place is "on edge but expected to play nice because they lost".  Rural Northern Ireland is much less overtly political. I was also there in the run up to an election so they might have been touchier than normal.

[grampster]

Hang on a second there.

When was the last time before the establishment of socialist Israel in the 20th century that Jerusalem was run by Israelis???

Also, can you identify a single piece of land that Israel gave in concession to anyone? Hint: I am asking that question knowing the answer. But I’d be happy to see a document that shows I’m wrong.

Since you already claim to know the answer to your question, it's pointless to point out to you any facts.  You always seem to argue rather than ponder something other than your worldview.  The thing about the internet, other than there is a good deal of BS, there is a fairly accurate account of things if one is willing to set aside one's bias or dislike of a thing and spend a little time...maybe more than a little time discovering stuff.  There are libraries as well.  But then one needs to be willing to not have a closed mind.  

As for me, I don't dislike Arabs even though history is rife with examples of their culture as not being much for civilized behavior and progress beyond the culture of feudal tribalism and hatred of opposing clans and differing sects of their religion.  (Or maybe they just continue to be disappointed in being a descendant of Abraham's bastard son.)  I'm just disappointed in the intractability of that culture in being able to recognize that civilization, freedom and western culture has proven it has much to offer other than the closed minds of feudal tribalism, shame/honor system, Sharia and a culture of oppression and death. (even if that Western civilization and freedom also offers sleaze and coarse behavior, it can be avoided easily by not participating; one is not forced to participate or be beheaded for disagreeing)    

[TommyGunn]

Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?
......

Yes, I expect them to accept it.



Or die.

[agricola]

Have you ever read it?  Have you lived in the ME?  If so, how long.  It seems like a lot of credible reviewers disagree with you.  Pryce-Davies lived there.  The relatives that he lived with were diplomats and well connected.  I read the book right about the time of the first Gulf War.  The happenings around the world and in the ME since seem to indicate that Pryce-Davies experiences, insights and conclusions are mostly correct.  

To enlarge on the above.  If you would like a bit more information you might also pick up a writing by SCOTUS Justice Robert Jackson:  Law in the Middle East.  Get some more insight you will.  Also Andrew McCarthy had an interesting commentary on Islam.  Seems he needed to know as much about Islam as he could since he was chief prosecutor of The Blind Sheik.  He since has spent a good amount of time studying Islam.  You can find that in Imprimis, Feb. 2016, volume 45, number 2.

Perhaps DeSelby would be enlightened a bit by also boning up on reality a bit more.

Yes, I have read it and no, I have never lived in the ME. 

My point about its hypocrisy is that he criticizes the Arab ruling class for being tribal, for focusing on the state as a means of self-enrichment and their ruthlessness without ever acknowledging that we (first the UK but then the wider West) have actively supported that sort on almost each and every occasion where their rule has been seriously challenged.  If a movement turns up that threatens to modernize the country - which will inevitably reduce the power of its rulers - then they stomp on it, and we help them. 

[agricola]

Northern Ireland is calm(ish)* and part of the UK.  The southern states have had several generations of being smacked down and taking what the feds give them.  Being "rebellious" in the US is waving an old flag while paying a 30+% marginal tax rate.

*Belfast (another place I've personally gone to) still has the air of a city kinda on edge, and there are still walled neighborhoods, but the overall vibe of the place is "on edge but expected to play nice because they lost".  Rural Northern Ireland is much less overtly political. I was also there in the run up to an election so they might have been touchier than normal.

The important bit about NI is that the British government managed to calm the situation down by actually talking to our version of Hamas in an honest and sincere fashion, and dealt with the real issues that provided so much  of its support; and of course our version of Hamas also helped by revealing that it was actually formed of some unpleasant people as well as freedom fighters (in incidents like the McCartney murder and its aftermath, or the emergence of what they did to the likes of Jean McConville).  We tried the Israeli approach - or rather the Diet version of the Israeli approach since we didn't actually try to recolonize the Falls Road and the RAF never bombed it - for twenty years with the results that we all know.

[De Selby]

The important bit about NI is that the British government managed to calm the situation down by actually talking to our version of Hamas in an honest and sincere fashion, and dealt with the real issues that provided so much  of its support; and of course our version of Hamas also helped by revealing that it was actually formed of some unpleasant people as well as freedom fighters (in incidents like the McCartney murder and its aftermath, or the emergence of what they did to the likes of Jean McConville).  We tried the Israeli approach - or rather the Diet version of the Israeli approach since we didn't actually try to recolonize the Falls Road and the RAF never bombed it - for twenty years with the results that we all know.

But did you America bro?

Expect the obvious point you made to be blown right over.  If they were amenable to good sense over there they wouldn’t have elected Bill Clinton on huge majorities

[slugcatcher]

Slugcatcher,

How do you explain Christian, Druze, and secular opposition to Israel in the ME?  Are all those religions and political movements anti semites like the Muslims?

The self proclaimed Christians I've met that don't like the Jews are anti-Semites but not to the degree of wanting a final solution as the Muslims do.  None of them could tell me why they hated Jews to begin with other than, "they killed Jesus" and "They control all the money".  I've never met any Druze, but I'd bet they wouldn't last too long once the Muslims take over Israel.  You're going to throw secular opposition into this?  That would be similar to considering the opinion of flat earthers on how NASA should be run.  Most of the secularists I've met don't care.  The few that do are rabid anti-Semites and mostly agree with the Muslims on how to deal with Jews.  When I ask them about their Jew hate it's, "they murder babies" or "they control the banks".  

[De Selby]

The self proclaimed Christians I've met that don't like the Jews are anti-Semites but not to the degree of wanting a final solution as the Muslims do.  None of them could tell me why they hated Jews to begin with other than, "they killed Jesus" and "They control all the money".  I've never met any Druze, but I'd bet they wouldn't last too long once the Muslims take over Israel.  You're going to throw secular opposition into this?  That would be similar to considering the opinion of flat earthers on how NASA should be run.  Most of the secularists I've met don't care.  The few that do are rabid anti-Semites and mostly agree with the Muslims on how to deal with Jews.  When I ask them about their Jew hate it's, "they murder babies" or "they control the banks".  

Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel.  Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside  Christians.

I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people

[dogmush]

The important bit about NI is that the British government managed to calm the situation down by actually talking to our version of Hamas in an honest and sincere fashion, and dealt with the real issues that provided so much  of its support; and of course our version of Hamas also helped by revealing that it was actually formed of some unpleasant people as well as freedom fighters (in incidents like the McCartney murder and its aftermath, or the emergence of what they did to the likes of Jean McConville).  We tried the Israeli approach - or rather the Diet version of the Israeli approach since we didn't actually try to recolonize the Falls Road and the RAF never bombed it - for twenty years with the results that we all know.

I confess to not being an expert on the Troubles or what you guys did to fix it.  It obviously seems to have been reasonably successful so far.  So, cool.  My comment was specifically in response to the resident commie's question.  As far as I know Northern Ireland is still part of the UK despite "power sharing" agreements and the nationalists are expected to live with that.  Although I can't claim to know enough about Irish politics to even have an opinion on the various parties I saw advertised in a Northern Ireland election.  I can say from experience that some locals are still pretty touchy about it.

I would be pretty leery of drawing too many parallels between the Irish cultures involved in the Troubles and the Arab (and other) cultures involved in the Mid East.

[grampster]

Yes, I have read it and no, I have never lived in the ME. 

My point about its hypocrisy is that he criticizes the Arab ruling class for being tribal, for focusing on the state as a means of self-enrichment and their ruthlessness without ever acknowledging that we (first the UK but then the wider West) have actively supported that sort on almost each and every occasion where their rule has been seriously challenged.  If a movement turns up that threatens to modernize the country - which will inevitably reduce the power of its rulers - then they stomp on it, and we help them. 

Well, with a couple of exceptions there hasn't been much modernizing in the present day ME.  The US turning away from a couple ME despots who weren't particularly steeped in radical Islam hasn't worked out so well since those places are in chaos.

[Jamisjockey]

Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel.  Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside  Christians.

I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people

Ya'll are marching right into DeS's line of fire.  Just saying.

[Pb]

Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel.  Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside  Christians.

I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people

Um, yes Druze do live in Israel, serve in the IDF and are in the Israeli legislature:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze_in_Israel

[agricola]

Well, with a couple of exceptions there hasn't been much modernizing in the present day ME.  The US turning away from a couple ME despots who weren't particularly steeped in radical Islam hasn't worked out so well since those places are in chaos.

That is my point, though.  The places in chaos in the Arab region itself are Iraq (formerly ruled by a Ba'athist), Syria (currently mostly ruled by Ba'athists or the SDF / Opposition), Libya (formerly ruled by whatever Gaddafi claimed to be) and Yemen (formerly "socialist" / Arab nationalist).  There are also significant problems in Egypt (formerly a military dictatorship, briefly replaced by a democracy, now a military dictatorship again) and Lebanon (at times a democracy).  

They are all places where something other than the "traditional" Islamist rule that Pryce-Jones claims to attack has been in force or attempted, and when we have intervened we have invariably intervened on the side of traditional Islamist rule (and increasingly against Iranian influence, despite Iran being far more of a democracy and a much freer society than Saudi Arabia is).  In fact the only occasions on which we have seriously gone after fundamentalist Sunni regimes are in Afghanistan (after extreme provocation) and against IS (again after repeated terror attacks in the West, and execution of Western hostages - and even then you could make the argument that we only got properly involved when Saudi Arabia itself was threatened).  

[slugcatcher]

Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel.  Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside  Christians.

I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people

Can the "mate" crap.  No need to be a derogatory ass. Never met any Druze and don't know where they live but I'll be they don't live in ISIS territory.

Calling me a liar does not help support your argument although I am surprised it wasn't your first response.  Stay classy chap.

[agricola]

I confess to not being an expert on the Troubles or what you guys did to fix it.  It obviously seems to have been reasonably successful so far.  So, cool.  My comment was specifically in response to the resident commie's question.  As far as I know Northern Ireland is still part of the UK despite "power sharing" agreements and the nationalists are expected to live with that.  Although I can't claim to know enough about Irish politics to even have an opinion on the various parties I saw advertised in a Northern Ireland election.  I can say from experience that some locals are still pretty touchy about it.

I would be pretty leery of drawing too many parallels between the Irish cultures involved in the Troubles and the Arab (and other) cultures involved in the Mid East.

I wouldn't, especially when it comes to what the Israelis under Bibi are actually doing.  

The lesson of the past ten years is pretty clear - if you go down the route of negotiation, limited co-operation and non-violence as Fatah have in the West Bank, you get worse than nothing; if you resist and fight back as Hamas have you at least get acknowledged and the settlements do not get built on your land.  I defy anyone to explain why a peace process is likely (or even that Hamas will lose power) when firing rockets instead of talking is rewarded like that.

[Scout26]

Slugcatcher,

How do you explain Christian, Druze, and secular opposition to Israel in the ME?  Are all those religions and political movements anti semites like the Muslims?

BBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAhahahahahaha
*snort*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*gasp*  *snort*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Very nice counselor.  Let's create a supposition of of whole cloth and use it as the basis of our argument.  Please don't tell me you do this in court ??  I guess all of your clients, guilty or not, end up with lengthy prison sentences, do they not ??  

Do you mean Christians like the ones massacred by Jews in Sinjar ??  Or the Yazidi trapped by Jews on that mountain in Northern Iraq ??

And then the Drize who are only banned from living in two countries in the ME.  Israel and Syria (Because the nominally Muslim Syrian Alewites, see "the Assads" who rule Syria, hate everyone not Alewites).  Yes, both nations hate the Druze (and Christians) sooooo much they are prohibited to serve in their military.  

Of course it's the exact opposite what I wrote above.  Christians and Druze enjoy full rights and protections in Israel (same as Arabs and Jews).  Israel (and too a certain extent Syria) is/are pluralistic and secular states that allow freedom of religion.  Christians and Druze in Israel live in harmony with everyone else and know that they will not be slaughtered simply because of their beliefs (or for any other reason).


Try again.  

[De Selby]

Amy, that is complete hogwash. Palestinians of any religion do NOT have the same rights as others in Israel, and the Christians and Druze vocally oppose the Israeli government:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5146653/Abbas-aide-warns-Jerusalem-harm-US-Mideast.html

Last night, Palestinian Christians gathered in Bethlehem and burned placards featuring Trump's likeness and 'Jerusalem, Palestine's heart, is not up to negotiations,' written on them.

[De Selby]

Can the "mate" crap.  No need to be a derogatory ass. Never met any Druze and don't know where they live but I'll be they don't live in ISIS territory.

Calling me a liar does not help support your argument although I am surprised it wasn't your first response.  Stay classy chap.

That’s a good point - no other religions are welcome in ISIS territory. And yet the Israelis had a close relationship with ISIS and backed them in Syria. The “caliph” of ISIS was an Israeli informer.

I wonder why that freedom loving democracy would be working with Isis?

[Scout26]

Ummm, Israeli Arabs* are afforded the same rights as Jews, Druze, Christians, and any others in Israel.

And 10 guys (who say they are Palestinian, not necessarily Christians) burning some posters does not represent "all" Palestinian Christians (if they even are Christians).

And someone is voting for Israeli Arabs...

The number of Arab MKs jumped from 12 to 17, in part because the parties making up the Joint List’s numbers went up from 10 to 13, and also because the Likud and Zionist Union each added an Arab lawmaker.

(bolding mine)

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/The-20th-Knesset-by-the-numbers-More-Arab-and-female-MKs-fewer-ultra-Orthodox-lawmakers-394305



*- Except they are exempt from the draft/compulsory military service, though they can volunteer.   I also count three Druze and at least one Christian MK.



So DeSelby, how many Jews and Christians are part of governments in other ME countries ??