Arizona shooting

[RevDisk]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html

Saw the video. It was like Stalin's version of Simon Says. The sergeant was giving a long list of confusing orders, another cop shot the suspect who was obviously trying to comply. There was no obvious reason why they didn't tell him to faceplant, search him for weapons and cuff the guy. In addition, the shooter had certain weapon mods that have come to light. Specifically "You're ****ed" on the AR15 cover flap.

Naturally, the shooting officer was acquitted and I don't believe the Sergeant that was giving the orders was put up on charges.


Guess that's a new thing to add to practical self-defense courses. How to react when at gunpoint, you are getting multiple conflicting or confusing orders shouted at you. Personally, I'd freeze and not budge until given clear calm instructions, but it is something I have to noodle over and research. Thoughts?

[dogmush]

Having watched that video, I suspect that freezing and not budging would have gotten you shot in that one.  "Non-compliant and a threat" or some such.

We (society) won't get a change to officer use of force SOP's until we demand accountability, and we (society) seem to be unwilling to hold police officer's accountable.


I don't condone it, and we absolutely shouldn't do it, but I sometimes feel like I can see where the folks in Texas that were hunting LEO's were coming from.  If you really feel like LEO's can kill your community with impunity and will never be held accountable by the courts, why not?


As a wider note, it's one of the dangers we face as a society.  If the government controlled justice system is seen as unreliable, unfair, or unwilling to deliver justice, what incentive do people have to allow it to work?

[Ben]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html
Guess that's a new thing to add to practical self-defense courses. How to react when at gunpoint, you are getting multiple conflicting or confusing orders shouted at you. Personally, I'd freeze and not budge until given clear calm instructions, but it is something I have to noodle over and research. Thoughts?

This is what I have stated as well regarding unstable cops and itchy trigger fingers, in hopes that a calmer cop comes along. Dogmush makes a good point though - it can easily become a no-win situation for the person on the shooty end of the gun.

Sorry for being ignorant about it on a gun oriented board, but I don't own any ARs. Why are you guys calling the mods "you're *expletive deleted*ed" mods?

Edit: Oh, nevermind. I was reading "you're *expletive deleted*ed" as in some kind of snake eater mod on the firearm - not that it was "you're *expletive deleted*ed" written on the dustcover (which I now saw at one of the links). Physical mod vs mental mod.  I think in this case, the mental mod was worse. The cop definitely looks like one of those guys who becomes a cop in hopes of shooting people, and to be "authority".

[zxcvbob]

Indiscriminant shooting of cops, like what happened in Dallas and I think has happened a few times in NYC is way out of line.  If someone were to kill this particular cop, or others like him, I'd say he had it coming.  I'd even be pleased about it.  They gave the justice system a chance first and it failed.

I'm not sure who would have standing to be that vigilante tho'.  A family member of one of the victims?  Someone they hired?  Someone from the same community?  I really don't know.

I still haven't watched the video.  Snuff films are not my thing.

[French G.]

I have had a cop plainly state to me that they were hoping to get the chance to shoot somebody. Given it was city of Chesapeake, shocked was my face.

[230RN]

I still haven't watched the video.  Snuff films are not my thing.

Nor mine, but it's reality I should know about.  

Guess that's a new thing to add to practical self-defense courses. How to react when at gunpoint, you are getting multiple conflicting or confusing orders shouted at you. Personally, I'd freeze and not budge until given clear calm instructions, but it is something I have to noodle over and research. Thoughts?

I've become a little addicted to watching police behavior on the Justice Channel.  So sue me.  But it concerns me a lot when I see and hear conflicting and unintelligible commands given not only by multiple officers, but even by the same one.

"Thoughts?"

Personal perspective:  As stiff and arthritic as I am, I'd have a damned hard time following an instruction to get on my knees or lie down without bringing my hands down.

(Come to think of it, my first instinctive move in getting out of my car is to reach for my cane.  Hmmmm.....  Yikes.)

I pity the poor inebriated person who would have a hard time integrating shouted instructions.

Terry 

[griz]

Is there anybody out there who's idea of "crawl" does not include using your hands?

[230RN]

Is there anybody out there who's idea of "crawl" does not include using your hands?

That bothered me, too.  It almost sounded like it was something out of an S&M or bondage/dominance scene.

Terry

[Andiron]

I don't condone it, and we absolutely shouldn't do it, but I sometimes feel like I can see where the folks in Texas that were hunting LEO's were coming from.  If you really feel like LEO's can kill your community with impunity and will never be held accountable by the courts, why not?


As a wider note, it's one of the dangers we face as a society.  If the government controlled justice system is seen as unreliable, unfair, or unwilling to deliver justice, what incentive do people have to allow it to work?

I'd love to be on the jury after an angry relative caught up with the trigger puller and the sgt.  Jury nullification FTW.

[Scout26]

I have not watched it yet either.  I want to have a decent chunk of time so that I calm my rage* and then post my thoughts.

And while horrific as this sounds, it is still the outlier when it comes to police shootings.  If they were "common", then we would hear about them just like we hear about all the gang shootings in Chicago.  Yes, the number of police shootings like Laquain McDonald and this one should be zero.  Yes, those police officers need to be tried and if found guilty, then they need to be financially ruined.  Not the city/state/county picking up the tab when they are sued by the family.

Once that starts to happen then and only then will crap like this become unicorn rare.





*-based on what I've heard about it.

[KD5NRH]

I have not watched it yet either.  I want to have a decent chunk of time so that I calm my rage* and then post my thoughts.

Might as well watch it now; your rage will come back in force when you do.

Especially if you find the full length one with a few minutes of idiocy after the shooting while they're trying to get into the wrong room.  (If anyone runs across that one, post it.  I watched it on a friend's phone and haven't found it myself.)

[230RN]

Amy Schumer said,

Yes, the number of police shootings like Laquain McDonald and this one should be zero.

REF:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Laquan_McDonald

Several salient points in that article.  The following are not actual links, just the table of contents.  See the article itself for actual hotlinks to these topics:

------------------------------------------
Contents  [hide]
1 Profiles
 1.1 Laquan McDonald
 1.2 Jason Van Dyke

2 Shooting
2.1 Initial police report
2.2 Medical report
2.3 Dash-cam video
2.4 Burger King surveillance video
2.5 $5 million settlement

3 Legal proceedings
3.1 Requests for documents
3.2 Investigations
3.3 Van Dyke's trial

4 Reactions to video
4.1 Protests
4.1.1 November protests
4.1.2 December protests
4.1.3 January protests
4.1.4 February protests
4.1.5 March protests
4.1.6 Threat by Jabari Dean

4.2 Other reactions

5 Aftermath
5.1 The Chicago Police Accountability Task Force
5.2 Firing of Superintendent Garry McCarthy
5.3 Calls for Anita Alvarez's resignation
5.4 Calls for Rahm Emanuel's resignation
5.5 Video released of shooting of Ronald Johnson III
5.6 De-escalation and Taser training
5.7 Emails from the mayor's office released
5.8 Documents from 2005 Incident
5.9 Two recommendations that officers be fired
5.10 Three current and former Chicago police officers charged

6 2017 DOJ Report and agreement for oversight of city police
7 See also
8 References
9 External links
--------------------------------------------

[Hawkmoon]

I'd love to be on the jury after an angry relative caught up with the trigger puller and the sgt.  Jury nullification FTW.

Me! Me! Pick me!

Unfortunately, I'm too honest. I think I'm permanently blackballed from jury duty because of what transpired the last time I was called, and both attorneys and a judge didn't like what I said in voir dire.

[Hawkmoon]

And while horrific as this sounds, it is still the outlier when it comes to police shootings.  If they were "common", then we would hear about them just like we hear about all the gang shootings in Chicago.  Yes, the number of police shootings like Laquain McDonald and this one should be zero.  Yes, those police officers need to be tried and if found guilty, then they need to be financially ruined.  Not the city/state/county picking up the tab when they are sued by the family.

How about the guy who was shot while the PoPo were evacuating a Wal-Mart awhile back?

Not the one I'm thinking of, but ... http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-stalked-murdered-man-walmart-trying-buy-airsoft-gun-back-duty/


I can't find the one I'm thinking of. The man was in a Walmart with his wife/fiancee/GF. He was licensed to carry, and he was carrying -- IIRC, under a tee shirt or sweatshirt. Something went down, cops were called, store was being evacuated. He was existing with everyone else, multiple cops started shouting conflicting instructions at him, and whatever happened (this is what I don't remember), they shot him because he didn't "comply."

[KD5NRH]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Laquan_McDonald

Several salient points in that article.

Yeah, I'm not seeing a good comparison here; McDonald was visibly armed and refusing to comply with a clear and simple order to drop the knife.

Not saying it's a good shoot; a guy facing away and walking away with a knife is not an immediate threat to multiple armed cops, but he was far from innocent.  Shaver would have gotten little more than a knock on the door and a stern lecture about not being stupid with a gun in plenty of jurisdictions.

[White Horseradish]

This really isn't that uncommon.

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2010/sep/24/shoppers-recount-police-shooting-outside-costco/

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/20/us/philando-castile-shooting-dashcam/index.html

http://www.fox9.com/news/justine-damond-shooting-bca-complete


Scott and Castile shootings are especially similar - rapid conflicting commands, then shooting for not following them.

Anybody without a badge would have been buried under the jail.

[cordex]

This really isn't that uncommon.

That it happens at all is disgusting.  That the police in question often get away with it is horrific.  But common?  No

[dogmush]

That it happens at all is disgusting.  That the police in question often get away with it is horrific.  But common?  No

Common is an imprecise term. How many should we, as citizens, be OK with before we just take care of the shooters ourselves?

There's 323 million people in the US. There are approx 800,000 sworn Law Enforcement officers in the US.

How many in punished murders should we allow before we decide they can't police their own? 5/year? 1000/year?*

Certainly mistakes happen, and there are bad apples in a population of near 1 million, but there has to be a limit. At some point we, as folks that are getting shot, need to admit that the soap and ballot boxes have not stopped innocent folks getting killed.


*I don't claim to have the numerical answer to that. But I really think it would behoove the calmer citizens to answer those questions before the more hysterical members of society pick an answer for us.

[zxcvbob]

How about the guy who was shot while the PoPo were evacuating a Wal-Mart awhile back?

Not the one I'm thinking of, but ... http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-stalked-murdered-man-walmart-trying-buy-airsoft-gun-back-duty/


I can't find the one I'm thinking of. The man was in a Walmart with his wife/fiancee/GF. He was licensed to carry, and he was carrying -- IIRC, under a tee shirt or sweatshirt. Something went down, cops were called, store was being evacuated. He was existing with everyone else, multiple cops started shouting conflicting instructions at him, and whatever happened (this is what I don't remember), they shot him because he didn't "comply."

You're getting John Crawford III and Erik Scott mixed up.  One was murdered by a cop at Walmart, and the other at a Las Vegas Costco. 

[230RN]

Yeah, I'm not seeing a good comparison here; McDonald was visibly armed and refusing to comply with a clear and simple order to drop the knife.

Not saying it's a good shoot; a guy facing away and walking away with a knife is not an immediate threat to multiple armed cops, but he was far from innocent.  Shaver would have gotten little more than a knock on the door and a stern lecture about not being stupid with a gun in plenty of jurisdictions.

Not in terms of the weaponry and precise situations, but in terms of trigger happiness, protests, delays, and other points in the "story line."

McDonald got 16 rd, Shaver only what, 5 or 6, but he was already down.

Terry  

[KD5NRH]

Not in terms of the weaponry and precise situations, but in terms of trigger happiness, protests, delays, and other points in the "story line."

I would be a lot more inclined to overlook cops being truly on edge when there's a visible weapon and a complete refusal to respond to reasonable commands than a guy who's effectively in his underwear and confused about how to comply with with a cop who apparently got his training from the Twister handbook.

[MechAg94]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=VBUUx0jUKxc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V5lxZUKhK8

Here are two Youtube videos of the shooting.  The second is a news story.  It is worth a few minutes to at least see the first one.  At no time can I see where there was any threat from the guy.  I also can't see why they wouldn't just move up and cuff him.  The door behind him was closed.  There was little risk of approaching him.  

My issue is I thought the one giving the orders was an accessory to murder.  IMO, threatening to shoot the guy repeatedly for not following commands didn't help the mind set of the victim and only served to make the shooter more likely to have an itchy trigger finger. 

[KD5NRH]

New reality show: Are You Smarter than a Mesa Cop?

First challenge: which door goes to room 502?



Imagine being in 501; you hear a bunch of indistinct yelling, then gunshots in the hall, and somebody starts trying to force their way into your room.  Pretty much betting any of us would have been in the middle of a bloodbath if they had managed to force the door.  (Remember that the woman stated afterward that they couldn't tell what was going on in the hall until the front desk called to tell them to step out.  Some of these places are impressively soundproofed, and all the yelling was down the hall from those doors.)

[KD5NRH]

Challenge 2: Describe the major differences between "command voice" and "shrieking like a hysterical 5 year old on PCP."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=VBUUx0jUKxc#t=3m52s

[Hawkmoon]

You're getting John Crawford III and Erik Scott mixed up.  One was murdered by a cop at Walmart, and the other at a Las Vegas Costco. 

I wasn't getting them mixed up, but Erik Scott is, indeed, the incident I was trying to recall. I thought the Scott shooting was also at a Walmart.