On the Vegas Shooter

[dogmush]

Is there a link that spells out exactly what the guy did and what the charges are?  I am seeing in one part of the article they say they found AP ammo in the hotel room after the shooting that this guy made.  Later in the story, they say he sold Paddock a bunch of tracer rounds.  Are they confusing AP ammo with tracer rounds?  Is tracer ammo covered under the same regs as AP ammo with regard to licensing?  I am am not even sure if Paddock even fired any of this guy's ammo during the shooting, just that they found a box of ammo with his name and address. 

Different licenses.

My understanding is this:

Cops found AP in the hotel room with a non-Paddock fingerprint.
Fingerprint came back to this Haig guy.
When investigating Haig it was discovered that he sells remanufactured ammo as a hobby.
Haig, while being interviewed, admitted to selling Paddock 720 tracers.
Haig is now being charged with manufacturing the AP ammo (that had his print on it) without a license.

[Ben]

Haig is now being charged with manufacturing the AP ammo (that had his print on it) without a license.

Which to me is okay, again with the caveat that what the law is and what I want it to be are two different things. My concern in all this is that they don't grab people and charge them with more severe crimes as "accomplices" etc. simply because they don't have anyone obvious to prosecute for Vegas.

[Fly320s]

Not picking on you personally, Ben, but I do want to say this.

Which to me is okay, again with the caveat that what the law is and what I want it to be are two different things.

If you don't agree with the law, you shouldn't be OK with someone being prosecuted for breaking it.  In my mind, that means that everyone should always be punished everytime for every violation.  We know that doesn't happen and can't happen, which is why we have prosecutor's discretion.

My concern in all this is that they don't grab people and charge them with more severe crimes as "accomplices" etc. simply because they don't have anyone obvious to prosecute for Vegas.

Which is probably what is happening.  Someone's gotta pay. Also see: charge stacking.

[Ben]

Not picking on you personally, Ben, but I do want to say this.

If you don't agree with the law, you shouldn't be OK with someone being prosecuted for breaking it.  In my mind, that means that everyone should always be punished everytime for every violation.  We know that doesn't happen and can't happen, which is why we have prosecutor's discretion.

Which is probably what is happening.  Someone's gotta pay. Also see: charge stacking.

I understand where you're coming from, and I probably shouldn't be using the word "okay", but can't think of something else that would fit with my main point of not wanting to see someone railroaded.

[Hawkmoon]

Not picking on you personally, Ben, but I do want to say this.

If you don't agree with the law, you shouldn't be OK with someone being prosecuted for breaking it.  In my mind, that means that everyone should always be punished everytime for every violation.  We know that doesn't happen and can't happen, which is why we have prosecutor's discretion.

Which is probably what is happening.  Someone's gotta pay. Also see: charge stacking.

Charge stacking (i.e. prosecutorial over-reaching) is always bad. Beyond that, there are situations when disagreeing with a law but holding people to it is still appropriate. A situation in which someone knows the law yet intentionally chooses to disregard it is different from a situation where someone innocently breaks  a law and essentially gets trapped. If Mr. Haig was intentionally manufacturing ammunition for resale without a license, and especially if he was intentionally manufacturing armor-piercing ammunition, I would find it hard to excuse him just because I think the laws shouldn't be there. That's very different from, for example, the Shaneen Allen case, where she honestly thought her Pennsylvania carry permit was valid in New Jersey and volunteered to a police officer that she was carrying in New Jersey. **IF** Mr. Haig was intentionally flouting the laws regarding the requirement for an FFL to manufacture ammunition, I'd have to think twice before voting to nullify his charges. In the case of Ms. Allen, I wouldn't hesitate.

I suppose that boils down to situational ethics. Some people accept situational ethics as valid, others don't.

In general, if we are to be a nation of laws we should not object to someone being prosecuted for breaking a law. Not okay with piling on multiple, overlapping charges, but if we reach a point where we don't want to prosecute for breaking laws, then we're in a state of anarchy and everyone gets to decide which laws they want to follow and which they want to ignore.

[HankB]

I read a story claiming the police found a box or carton with an address label for Haig, and that was how they traced him.

When investigating Haig it was discovered that he sells remanufactured ammo as a hobby.

This suggests more of a small business than a "hobby" activity.

Haig, while being interviewed, admitted to selling Paddock 720 tracers.

It would seem that Haig's talking to investigators was a mistake.

[dogmush]

This suggests more of a small business than a "hobby" activity.

The term hobby was from Haig's statement.

I agree it looks more like a small buisness.

[Hawkmoon]

It would seem that Haig's talking to investigators was a mistake.

Maybe. But it's probably better to be defending yourself against a charge of making ammunition without a license than against a charge of being an accomplice in 58 murders and however many cases of attempted murder.

[Fly320s]

It would seem that Haig's talking to investigators was a mistake.

Talking to investigators without your lawyer present is a mistake.

[freakazoid]

Selling for money is engaging in business. You can reload all you want if you give it away, and maybe even if your friends buy the components and bring them to you for the actual loading. Taking money for your efforts is being in business -- even if you're not making a profit.

Is that in the same regards as manufacturing/selling firearms as a business? As in are you just cranking them out with the specific intent of selling them, or did you make some and then later decided you wanted to sell it.

The ATF has published letters that you can sell as little as one firearm, at a loss, and they will consider you "in the business".

Wasn't there a sort of recent change on how they interpreted it? Like a little bit more restrictive than it use to be?

[Chester32141]

I found this article to be interesting ... 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/03/wayne-allyn-root-vegas-massacre-expose-really-happened/

[230RN]

I find this concept to be amusing.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[Hawkmoon]

I found this article to be interesting ...  

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/03/wayne-allyn-root-vegas-massacre-expose-really-happened/

I love a good conspiracy theory.

Let me repeat that for emphasis: I love a good conspiracy theory.

That is not a good conspiracy theory.

[Fly320s]

I found this article to be interesting ... 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/03/wayne-allyn-root-vegas-massacre-expose-really-happened/

You and the author need another layer of tinfoil.  Ot maybe upgrade to leadfoil.

[MechAg94]

I found this article to be interesting ... 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/03/wayne-allyn-root-vegas-massacre-expose-really-happened/

I didn't see them mention that the local FBI investigators were ordered to ignore leads/information about other shooters. 

[Perd Hapley]

On the kiddie porn thing - wasn't that found on his brother's computer, or something? Or was it on the shooter's?

[TechMan]

On the kiddie porn thing - wasn't that found on his brother's computer, or something? Or was it on the shooter's?

IIRC it was the brother's not the shooter's.

[RoadKingLarry]

Plenty of crap that smells to high heaven with this mess but gross incompetence on the part of those investigating could account for most of it.

[BobR]

IIRC it was the brother's not the shooter's.

I read it was both the shooter and his brother's computers that had the child porn on it.

bob