Author Topic: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question  (Read 803 times)

dogmush

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IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« on: March 13, 2018, 08:28:17 AM »
IT folks,

I'm looking at putting wireless cameras in my house for security, but I suddenly had a thought:  How much bandwidth can your average router support internal to the LAN?

I get all my entertainment through the internet, over my network, and I have two wired routers running two wireless networks. Only one access point.

If I go with the security setup I'm looking at I could easily have 2 TV's running YouTube/Netflix, a couple tablets on the internet, and 8 cameras streaming 720p 25FPS back to the NVR all on my WiFi.


Is that the kind of thing an normal "they gave it to me when I got internet" router can handle or would I need to upgrade LAN infrastructure to do that?

cordex

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2018, 08:53:52 AM »
Unless your gimme router is something pretty impressive, you'd definitely need an upgrade.

Firethorn

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 07:11:06 PM »
720P/25fps is enough for a range, but the compression standard also matters.  What you want to do is examine the specifications.

5 mbit seems to be a good range for it though it could be as low as 1mbit.  That would make 8 cameras would be 40mbit, worst reasonable case scenario.  Add another 20 mbit for the netflix TVs, a couple tablets isn't much unless they're also streaming at the same time.

There's a good chance your wireless router is a 802.11g version.  54mbit.  Thing is, bandwidth is sold like hard drive sizes, radio ranges, etc...

So I'd say that, in order to keep everybody happy, you shouldn't have a steady rate of anything more than 25 mbit. 

Ways to do this:
1.  Get a dual-band dual-network wireless-N/AC.  You will also have to get cameras that meet this standard, not easy.
2.  Buy a dedicated kit such as this(not an endorsement, merely an example), that includes a router.  I'd actually recommend something like this so you can bug tech support if it doesn't work.
3.  Wire at least some of the cameras up.  This would let you get into PoE cameras, which get their power over the ethernet cable.  Again, I'd recommend a kit in this case. 


GigaBuist

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 08:41:33 PM »
Firethorn hit in the basic bandwidth issues that are kind or a problem on wireless networks.  If you did start hitting problems lowering the FPS on the camera feed is an easy way to cut back.  I generally run my cameras at 6fps.  You could probably get each stream down to 1mbit at 720p/25fps though I bet.  It just depends on the compression available.

I hate running cameras over wireless though.  It always ends badly for me.  Eventually I'll be reviewing footage and it'll drop some frames. I hate seeing that so I quit trying.  Wired all the way for me and with PoE then you don't have to worry about putting them near power.  Just run it all on one line.

But, to the original question, assuming your WiFi spectrum is free of noise and your cameras aren't taking up too much of the available bandwidth the actual router itself should be able to pass the traffic around just fine.  I can't imagine even a $30 home router not being able to keep up with 100mbps-ish speeds on the LAN side.  I've got remote setups with a $60 router that push 2-3 cameras over a VPN connection back to me.  That's way more load than some LAN traffic.


KD5NRH

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 06:57:38 AM »
Ways to do this:
1.  Get a dual-band dual-network wireless-N/AC.  You will also have to get cameras that meet this standard, not easy.
2.  Buy a dedicated kit such as this(not an endorsement, merely an example), that includes a router.  I'd actually recommend something like this so you can bug tech support if it doesn't work.
3.  Wire at least some of the cameras up.  This would let you get into PoE cameras, which get their power over the ethernet cable.  Again, I'd recommend a kit in this case.

4. Ask around and see if someone has an extra WiFi router.  Put them on reasonably separated channels, and as much physical separation as you're willing to hardwire, and spread the load among them.  Repeat as needed.  I've seen three sitting on the same shelf without issue, but having at least a couple yards between them can't hurt.

dogmush

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 08:07:59 AM »
I have 2 dual band routers on opposite sides of the house sharing the load of the LAN already.

I guess I need to check what exactly routers I have when I get home tonight.

I'm trying to avoid crawling around in the attic running wire.  If I run PoE to any of the cameras I'd just do it to al of them and plug the NVR into one of the routers.

Firethorn

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 08:13:49 AM »
4. Ask around and see if someone has an extra WiFi router.  Put them on reasonably separated channels, and as much physical separation as you're willing to hardwire, and spread the load among them.  Repeat as needed.  I've seen three sitting on the same shelf without issue, but having at least a couple yards between them can't hurt.

Possible, but ugly.  If he's buying a kit of 8 of them, it's probably cheaper to get a kit that includes the router.

This gets complicated.  

Okay.  There are 2 frequency ranges for 802.11 networks.  2.5Ghz and 5Ghz.

2.5Ghz has, at the same power, under laboratory conditions, a better ability to penetrate, and thus longer ranges.  However, not only are there only 11 channels(legal) in the USA at this frequency, only 3 of them don't overlap.  So if you're on channel 7 and somebody is on channel 6 or 8, they will be interfering with your network.  Even 5 and 9, to a lesser extent.

Plus, "most" wireless networking equipment is operating on this band, as well as microwaves, baby monitors, wireless mice, bluetooth devices, and more.  The frequency is busy.

Meanwhile, at 5 Ghz, there are 28 channels(sorta, can be complicated).  Better yet, they're non-overlapping.  The only restriction is that there are radars operating in this range, but they'll only use 1 channel themselves, so the routers are programmed to change frequencies if they hear a radar.  But that's likely only to cost you a few channels.  So you're more likely to be able to find a channel that works.  While 5Ghz doesn't penetrate as well, it does "bounce" better, so you're still likely to get signal, especially if you leave the door open.  Multipath(multiple antennas) helps with this.  The net result is that in real world testing, 5Ghz will often get you better speed AND range.
 Finally, under the rules, you can turn up the power more on some of the channels, so if you have a reason and are willing to do the research....  

802.11A is 5 Ghz, 54mbit, depreciated.  Development on this protocol started first, which is why it is "A", but it took so much longer that B was released first.

802.11B - 2.4 Ghz, 11mbit, depreciated.  Quickly developed cheap protocol.  Apparently at the time 5GHz transmitters were expensive and couldn't be done in silicon, but had to be done with gallium or something, raising the expense.

802.11G - 2.4 Ghz, 54mbit, depreciated, but still common.  Basically "A" ported to 2.4Ghz with stuff to play nice with "B".  

802.11N - 2.4 OR 5 Ghz.  What I have, though I'll note that many of my connections are still wired.  A disturbing amount of hardware only capable of 2.4.  A notable feature here is the ability to use TWICE the bandwidth - rather than 1 20 MHz channel, it can use 2, and instead of 1 antenna, it can use up to 4.  With a single channel and antenna, it can reach 72mbit in normal environments, up to 150mbit if the band is relatively clear(no bluetooth, microwaves, or other networks around).   With 4 antennas and 1 channel, 288 mbit.  If it can use 2 channels, 40 MHz, and 4 antenna it can go up to 600 mbit.  Note, if you're trying to do this with 2.4Ghz you need to have quite some property and be avoiding 2.4Ghz devices otherwise.  Because, well, I have a good section of woods around my house, can't see the neighbors at all, and I can still pick up 4 networks other than my own...

Now, 600 mbit should do you.  It also sounds more impressive than it is.  That 600 mbit is simplex - shared between all devices.  A 100mbit wired connection is duplex - 100mbit down, 100mbit up.  And these days they're all switched, so every connection gets a dedicated 100mbit(or 1Gbit).  So 8 wired cameras = 1.6Gbit of potential transfer, 800mbit down, 800mbit up, even though they'd never use it.

So a cheap wireless-n, single channel, with 72mbit might be enough for you.  Anything fancy with 4 antennas should be sufficient, bandwidth wise, though I'll note that I can't "guarantee" - home construction, wires in the way, interference, other devices, quality of the devices all make a difference.  Size of the home, placement of the router, etc...

802.11ac - 802.11n times two.  80Ghz channel usage.  8 channels.  1.2 Mbit maximum theoretical speed.  But good luck finding cameras that support this yet, many are still G standard.

And I see you've replied dogmush.

Are your routers both physically wired and on different frequencies?  Dual band implies N at least, there were some A/G routers that could do that, but not many.  If they're wired and on different frequencies, then you should be good to go.  If one is acting as a bridge or repeater, talking to the other wirelessly, that cuts your available bandwidth with that device in half.

dogmush

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 08:28:09 AM »
Quote
And I see you've replied dogmush.

Are your routers both physically wired and on different frequencies?  Dual band implies N at least, there were some A/G routers that could do that, but not many.  If they're wired and on different frequencies, then you should be good to go.  If one is acting as a bridge or repeater, talking to the other wirelessly, that cuts your available bandwidth with that device in half.


Uhhhh........I feel like I should know more details about my network.

Both routers are physically tied into the coax in my house.  When I moved one I had to go into the attic and change some co-ax  to make sure it stayed hooked up to the Spectrum box outside my house.

I am pretty sure they are 802.11n, but I'll check.  I have two networks that get me into "my" internet:  "blahblahstring of numbers" and "blahblah string of numbers-5g"  (SSID's set by brighthouse on install) So I was kinda assuming that "5g" was the 5ghz part.  There is a big "main" router that has, I'm pretty sure, four antennas and the smaller "I need to extend my wifi to the back yard" with two antennas.

The camera kit I am kinda looking at is 2.4Ghz. cheap camera kit

I'm right on the fence between wanting the piece of mind and security vs. cost and hassle of install.   

cordex

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 05:33:44 PM »
1. 5ghz is definitely faster, but I've never had it achieve anywhere near the range of 2.4ghz.  For that reason (and probably cost), most cameras intended for external mounting are 2.4ghz only.
2. Distance and barriers can have a huge impact on achieved speed vs quoted speed.  Yeah, your router may be theoretically capable of 600Mbps but once signal falls off you're unlikely to see it.  That is especially an issue for cameras mounted outside the home.
3. Lots of active devices eats into performance unless the AP has the capacity for it.
4. Depending on the age and speed of your AP and devices, they may or may not support SU MIMO or MU MIMO.  If you don't have MU MIMO, running 12 devices all with steady load is going to suck, especially - as giga noted - since the video cameras are going to be very sensitive to dropping frames.
5. If wired PoE is an option that is definitely how I'd go.

Firethorn

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Re: IT folks question-LAN bandwidth question
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 07:55:51 PM »
1. 5ghz is definitely faster, but I've never had it achieve anywhere near the range of 2.4ghz.  For that reason (and probably cost), most cameras intended for external mounting are 2.4ghz only.

Cost is probably the big one.  Also, you're more likely trying to get through an external wall, so 2.4ghz is easier.  That said, it should be at least 2.4ghz version N, because if it only does G standard, while a N router can still work with it, it costs bandwidth proportionally - if it would consume 10% of a G network's bandwidth, it consumes 10% of the N network's bandwidth, plus a little for stepping down.

As for distance and barriers - yeah, I already said they're lying bastards.  Multiple devices is also why I tend to divide all bandwidth promised by at least 2 and usually 3-4. 

I agree with wired PoE.  It's the most pain in the butt to install, but also the most secure and least likely to hassle you in the future.