Author Topic: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla  (Read 4335 times)

French G.

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2018, 08:13:43 AM »
Here I am not 100% sold on ABS. I know how to use it, but I know how to use nonn abs too. I think the driver aids we have enable enough confidence that a higher terminal velocity is attained before the oops. I decided that engine off while driving will be part of my kid's learning curve. Whether a one ton truck downhill with a trailer, or the Mercedes at 80 mph in a curve when the belt spit things get sporty in a hurry without power steering and brakes.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Fly320s

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2018, 08:25:33 AM »
It's the drivers fault he plowed into a barrier at speed because he couldn't be bothered to A. drive the car, and B. RTFM and understand what the systems he was trying to use actually do.

QFTMFT

Until the driver's seat is removed, or all of the driving controls are removed, it is not a self-driving car.  Therefore, a trained operator must be in position to control the car.  If there is a driver, the driver is 100% responsible for driving the car regardless of the technology being used to assist the driver.

To put it into aviation terms:  The Driver in Command of an automobile is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that automobile.
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MechAg94

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2018, 08:38:42 AM »
Maybe a few more people can give opinions on who is responsible for the operation of the car.  I still don't get it.   =D

I was curious on this if all the automated systems in the car were actually working as designed.  I am still not sure.  They did say there was unrepaired damage to the front bumper if I read it right.  Either way, it sounds like this particular driver has had issues with the car before and should have learned his lesson.  Too late now.

What surprises me a little is I see ads showing all the automated safety features in these cars and I would think even a partially automated car could avoid the worst collisions.   Then again, I deal with automated systems at work.  They function great.....most of the time.
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lupinus

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2018, 08:54:13 AM »
There is no automated system that's going to avoid a collision for the driver. There are, however, automated systems that make it easier for the driver to avoid a collision.

If the driver is to busy picking his nose with one hand and scratching his balls with the other to pay attention and take back control of the car when the situation demands it, that's not the cars fault.

Collision radar isn't there to bring the car to a full stop. Lane drift detection isn't there to keep the car locked in one lane. Etc etc. It's there to warn you, and perhaps broaden the abilities of the automated system. Much like cruise control however it's there to aid the driver under normal, safe, non-noteable conditions. When something noteable pops up the driver needs to be able to take control back from the vehicle to deal with that. If they don't cause they're to busy to bother, that's their problem and fault.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2018, 08:56:18 AM »
There is no automated system that's going to avoid a collision for the driver. There are, however, automated systems that make it easier for the driver to avoid a collision.

If the driver is to busy picking his nose with one hand and scratching his balls with the other to pay attention and take back control of the car when the situation demands it, that's not the cars fault.

Collision radar isn't there to bring the car to a full stop. Lane drift detection isn't there to keep the car locked in one lane. Etc etc. It's there to warn you, and perhaps broaden the abilities of the automated system. Much like cruise control however it's there to aid the driver under normal, safe, non-noteable conditions. When something noteable pops up the driver needs to be able to take control back from the vehicle to deal with that. If they don't cause they're to busy to bother, that's their problem and fault.

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K Frame

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2018, 08:57:04 AM »
Who's responsible for the operation of your car.

Republicans -- The driver!

Democrats -- The manufacturer!

Libertarians -- It's none of your goddamned business who's operating my car!

Ultraliberals -- The state will operate your car for you!

Bernie Sanders -- The government should give everyone a car!

Tea Party -- Make American cars great again!

Donald Trump -- It will be the greatest American car ever!

Hillary Clinton -- What does it matter anymore who's operating your car?

Al Gore -- We're all going to die from car-related global warming.

David Hogg -- It's a high school student massacre, we need to have common sense gun laws that will make cars safer!

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

K Frame

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2018, 08:58:11 AM »
But I'm old and technology is scary!   :old:
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

No, you just can't see over the steering wheel without a pillow under your ass.  :rofl:
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Fly320s

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2018, 09:02:44 AM »
Maybe a few more people can give opinions on who is responsible for the operation of the car.  I still don't get it.   =D

OK, one more time.  And I will use small words:


The sheriff is near.


Understand now?   :-*
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KD5NRH

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2018, 09:18:41 AM »
To put it into aviation terms:  The Driver in Command of an automobile is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that automobile.

Right; I'm not saying the driver wasn't an idiot.  However, if someone posted video of themselves gently scraping the belly of a 320 across a cornfield while GPWS indicated no issues whatsoever, wouldn't you want a full investigation and some programmers' heads to roll if such a major and obvious bug could be isolated and identified?  How about if they proved that some not-uncommon condition can cause the radar altimeter to read 50 feet high or the GPS miscalculates everything 150 feet to the left on alternate Tuesdays between 3:17 and 3:19 PM?  Sure, you should be able to find a runway and land it entirely with charts, windows and standby instruments, but you know damn well if all those helpful electronics give you plausible but false readings at a critical time, it's likely to get rough, and that's not too far from what happened with the Tesla's much-touted collision avoidance system not detecting a crash barrier.  Heck, the guy in the video didn't have a lot of room to spare when he got stopped, and he was somewhat expecting exactly what happened.

Of course, my other observation on the situation is that Tesla should have set the stupid thing to refuse to cruise in the left lane.  AFAICT, the current software doesn't auto-pass, so it should be looking for the rightmost through lane at all times.

Ben

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2018, 09:19:24 AM »
Who's responsible for the operation of your car.

Republicans -- The driver!

Democrats -- The manufacturer!

Libertarians -- It's none of your goddamned business who's operating my car!

Ultraliberals -- The state will operate your car for you!

Bernie Sanders -- The government should give everyone a car!

Tea Party -- Make American cars great again!

Donald Trump -- It will be the greatest American car ever!

Hillary Clinton -- What does it matter anymore who's operating your car?

Al Gore -- We're all going to die from car-related global warming.

David Hogg -- It's a high school student massacre, we need to have common sense gun laws that will make cars safer!




 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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MechAg94

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2018, 09:58:32 AM »
Right; I'm not saying the driver wasn't an idiot.  However, if someone posted video of themselves gently scraping the belly of a 320 across a cornfield while GPWS indicated no issues whatsoever, wouldn't you want a full investigation and some programmers' heads to roll if such a major and obvious bug could be isolated and identified?  How about if they proved that some not-uncommon condition can cause the radar altimeter to read 50 feet high or the GPS miscalculates everything 150 feet to the left on alternate Tuesdays between 3:17 and 3:19 PM?  Sure, you should be able to find a runway and land it entirely with charts, windows and standby instruments, but you know damn well if all those helpful electronics give you plausible but false readings at a critical time, it's likely to get rough, and that's not too far from what happened with the Tesla's much-touted collision avoidance system not detecting a crash barrier.  Heck, the guy in the video didn't have a lot of room to spare when he got stopped, and he was somewhat expecting exactly what happened.

Of course, my other observation on the situation is that Tesla should have set the stupid thing to refuse to cruise in the left lane.  AFAICT, the current software doesn't auto-pass, so it should be looking for the rightmost through lane at all times.
I think you are thinking along the same lines I am.  Not trying to say the driver isn't responsible, but if all those electronic gadgets are supposed to help avoid collisions and such, I want to know if they did what they were supposed to.  If some of the sensors were out of commission, should the automated stuff refuse to work and force the driver to drive?  It sounds in this case like they may have worked well enough if the driver was paying attention and took action.
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K Frame

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2018, 10:09:57 AM »
OK, one more time.  And I will use small words:


The sheriff is near.


Understand now?   :-*

Pardon me while I whip this out...
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

KD5NRH

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2018, 10:41:06 AM »
I think you are thinking along the same lines I am.  Not trying to say the driver isn't responsible, but if all those electronic gadgets are supposed to help avoid collisions and such, I want to know if they did what they were supposed to.  If some of the sensors were out of commission, should the automated stuff refuse to work and force the driver to drive?  It sounds in this case like they may have worked well enough if the driver was paying attention and took action.

If collision avoidance is out, then it really shouldn't allow hands-off at all since it's hardly more than old fashioned cruise control at that point.  But then, the guy in the video didn't get any alerts either, and his was supposedly working fine.

dogmush

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2018, 11:12:45 AM »
If collision avoidance is out, then it really shouldn't allow hands-off at all since it's hardly more than old fashioned cruise control at that point.  But then, the guy in the video didn't get any alerts either, and his was supposedly working fine.

It doesn't.  It specifically says DON'T take your hands of the wheel.  And then if you do it both dings and flashes at you to tell you to put your hands back on the wheel.

From the Model S Manual:

Quote
Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times.

Warning: Autosteer is intended for use only on highways and limited-access roads with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer on city streets, in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present. Never depend on Autosteer to determine an appropriate driving path. Always be prepared to take immediate action. Failure to follow these instructions could cause serious property damage, injury or death

(bolding mine)

And the next page:

Quote
Hold Steering Wheel
Autosteer uses data from the camera, sensors, and GPS to determine how best to steer Model S. When active, Autosteer requires you to hold the steering wheel. If it does not detect your hands on the steering wheel for a period of time, a flashing white light appears around the instrument panel and the following message is displayed on the instrument panel: [There's a picture of the graphic here]

Autosteer detects your hands by recognizing light resistance as the steering wheel turns or from you manually turning the steering wheel very lightly (i.e., without enough force to retake control). When your hands are detected, the message disappears and Autosteer resumes normal operation.

Note: Autosteer may also sound a chime at the same time that the message is initially displayed.

Autosteer requires that you pay attention to your surroundings and remain prepared to take control at any time. If Autosteer still does not detect your hands on the steering wheel, the request escalates by sounding chimes that increase in frequency

If you repeatedly ignore hands-on prompts, Autosteer displays the following message and becomes disabled for the rest of the drive. If you don't resume manual steering, Autosteer sounds a continuous chime, turns on the warning flashers,  and slows the vehicle to a complete stop.

There is no hands off mode in a Tesla.  Both the dead guy, and the guy in the video operated their car in a manner that the manufacturer explicitly says not to do, and indeed will cause the car to stop in the middle of the road if continued.

Perhaps the sensors or software could be tweaked to make it less likely to need your intervention, and I'm sure Tesla is looking at that.  But if you do exactly what the instructions tell you not to, and then ignore the car's warning to stop doing that, and then wreck, it's not the software's fault. 

Quote from: MechAg94
Not trying to say the driver isn't responsible, but if all those electronic gadgets are supposed to help avoid collisions and such, I want to know if they did what they were supposed to. 

They did better then they were supposed to.  They got him all the way to the scene of the accident.   =D

dogmush

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2018, 11:18:07 AM »
Side note: While reading the Tesla Model S manual I noticed these two gems:

Quote
Canceling Autosteer
Autosteer cancels when:

You start steering manually.

You press the brake pedal.

You push the cruise control lever away
from you.

You unbuckle the driver's seat belt.

The maximum speed that Autosteer
supports (90 mph/150 km/h) is exceeded.

You shift out of the Drive gear.

An Automatic Emergency Braking event occurs (see Collision Avoidance Assist on page 85).

That seems a touch excessive.

also, the first line in the Autosteer section:
Quote
Note: Autosteer is a BETA feature.

 :laugh: Perhaps the software needs a little massaging yet after all.

Scout26

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2018, 11:53:13 AM »
Pardon me while I whip this out...


You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know… morons.

And Driver Assist =/= Driver Replacement.   I wouldn't even trust a car to "Self Park", whether it be parallel, backing, or even pulling straight in.   Driver aids (reverse camera/sonar warning system, etc) I'm fine with.  I've had them in rental cars, but the ones that "take over" for you...Umm no.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2018, 12:37:13 PM »

I was curious on this if all the automated systems in the car were actually working as designed.  I am still not sure.  They did say there was unrepaired damage to the front bumper if I read it right.


I don't think the unrepaired damage was to the bumper of the car, I think it was an unrepaired section of the Jersey barrier that he crashed into. Could a gap in the barrier have fooled a sensor in the autopilot system? Dunno, but possible, and I'm sure the investigation will look into that.

I'm just admittedly negative on the whole Tesla Autopilot concept. I think they call it "Autopilot," then in the fine print they explain that it's not really "autopilot." Well, if it isn't autopilot, why do you call it Autopilot? And if I have to keep my hands on the steering wheel and my eyes on the road -- what's the point of Tesla's [non]Autopilot system?
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Hawkmoon

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MechAg94

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2018, 05:23:22 PM »
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/04/02/tesla-fatal-crash-autopilot-recreation-near-collision/
So the the semi-auto driving mode doesn't handle all road conditions.  Good to know.  Looks like there were visual warnings.  I didn't hear the audible. 
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2018, 06:42:37 PM »
And if I have to keep my hands on the steering wheel and my eyes on the road -- what's the point of Tesla's [non]Autopilot system?
The same point as cruise control, even though you shouldn't go ahead and stick your feet out of the window to air out, cause they should be by the brake and gas peddles in case you need to use them? Just because the system will do it for you under the expected conditions it was designed for doesn't mean you shouldn't be in a position to take over for it should those conditions change. Tesla seems to pretty well explain that.

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That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

dogmush

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2018, 06:55:33 PM »
Watched the linked video again.

Look at the dash from :28 on. The car tells him that it's lost the right hand lane marker as the lane widens, and is only following the left side. (The side of the road goes from blue to grey on the dash.)
Plenty of time to look up and see that's not the line to follow.

lupinus

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Re: Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2018, 07:06:42 PM »
Watched the linked video again.

Look at the dash from :28 on. The car tells him that it's lost the right hand lane marker as the lane widens, and is only following the left side. (The side of the road goes from blue to grey on the dash.)
Plenty of time to look up and see that's not the line to follow.
Indeed. And watching the video the driver seems to let it go quite a bit longer than most folks who are paying attention, even had they leaned back and relaxed a bit, would have before intervening. I'd imagine for the sake of testing? Even so he's able to stop the vehicle instead of plowing head long into the barrier.

Looks like the car is indicating pretty clearly that it's loosing it's sensing ability and that you should take back control.

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Firethorn

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Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2018, 02:54:22 AM »
I was curious on this if all the automated systems in the car were actually working as designed.  I am still not sure.  They did say there was unrepaired damage to the front bumper if I read it right.  Either way, it sounds like this particular driver has had issues with the car before and should have learned his lesson.  Too late now.

Reading up, it wasn't the car's bumper, it's that the barrier had a bumper itself - you know those wavy metal things on the sides of many bridges?  Those are designed to bend, absorb energy.  Same idea with placing barrels of sand/water before bridge supports - they're supposed to bend to help save the lives of anybody hitting it.

That had been crushed by a car like a week earlier, but the highway department hadn't fixed or replaced it yet.


Quote
What surprises me a little is I see ads showing all the automated safety features in these cars and I would think even a partially automated car could avoid the worst collisions.   Then again, I deal with automated systems at work.  They function great.....most of the time.

From what I'm hearing, tesla's features have cut the accident rate in half.  So as bad as they are, they still help.  They really reworked things after the one Tesla hit the trailer. 

But yes, they're very much NOT self driving cars.

KD5NRH

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Re: Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2018, 05:09:07 AM »
[EDIT, guess MechAg beat me to that last part.  What I get for forgetting I was posting something until I woke up to turn the heater on and decided to check the time on the laptop rather than get my phone from its "I have to get up and go all the way over there to snooze the alarm" spot.]

Indeed. And watching the video the driver seems to let it go quite a bit longer than most folks who are paying attention, even had they leaned back and relaxed a bit, would have before intervening. I'd imagine for the sake of testing? Even so he's able to stop the vehicle instead of plowing head long into the barrier.

Now imagine he's been driving for hours, and happened to choose just the wrong 3-5 seconds to work a few kinks out of his neck.  Or got distracted by something in the wing mirror.

1) The car should begin to slow, pull over and shut down after no more than 2-3 seconds of no-hands.
2) Collision avoidance should...hell, do something.  Even if it's the wrong thing, there's a ginormous impact attenuator a few seconds ahead at current speed and the car is just happily blasting along straight at it.  I'm pretty sure those aren't made from surplus SR-71 parts.
3) VERY LOUD audible warnings for any danger scenario, that can't be muted without shutting off all automation features completely.  I'm talking painfully loud; it's less painful than smashing the car into stuff, after all.  

Hawkmoon; my understanding is that the "unrepaired" damage was an impact attenuator that hadn't been replaced after being hit more than a week before.  It would still have been a big hollow plastic object that visual and sonar should spot easily.  There's no repairing those; the whole point is that they rupture and crush to absorb the energy of an impact.  The replacement process is straightforward, and I can't see any legitimate excuse for it not happening within 24 hours of the responsible (ha!) agency becoming aware of the damage: bring out the replacement from the storage yard, and anchor it in whatever way is used there, if any, then roll out a tanker to fill it with water.  Plenty aren't anchored; 4+ tons of water in a plastic tank doesn't usually need to be tied down to stay put.  If they don't have the right size/shape/whatever on hand, then construct a temporary one from water barrels.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_attenuator#Water-filled_attenuators
The one in question appears to be one or more larger, special-shaped containers similar to the one in the picture at Wikipedia rather than a series of barrels, but that should make it even easier to replace as it's fewer parts, all of which are easily carried on a normal flatbed truck and can be deployed by 2-3 men when empty.  The one in the video is black, with no obvious reflectors, which makes me want to replace it with the people who approved that, duct taped into immobility, but it's still no excuse for an "advanced collision avoidance system" to think it's a good place to drive through at highway speeds.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Re: Tell me again why we should buy a Tesla
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2018, 07:43:05 AM »

Hawkmoon; my understanding is that the "unrepaired" damage was an impact attenuator that hadn't been replaced after being hit more than a week before.  It would still have been a big hollow plastic object that visual and sonar should spot easily.


There are a number of different types of impact attenuators. We don't know which type this was. In my corner of my state, they seem to have switched from wedges of sand-filled plastic barrels to some sort of telescoping contraption. Neither one leaves much after being hit at any significant speed. However, the post or Jersey barrier or whatever that the attenuator was supposed to protect people from is still there and a functioning collision-avoidance system should still, like, avoid the collision.
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