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Author Topic: Our Embassy in Jerusalem  (Read 1341 times)
De Selby
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 04:04:32 AM »

Bolivia still claims they own some shoreline on the Pacific coast of South America. Unfortunately, as of 1884, Bolivia no longer had any coastline. Something about a treaty with Chile that Bolivia unilaterally abrogated, and a little disagreement called The War of the Pacific.

The map of Europe today looks different from what it was at the end of WW2, which in turn is very different from how it looked at the end of WW1. That's what happens when nations go to war. Certain groups didn't like the fact that Israel existed so they set out to eliminate it. They lost. That's how the cookie crumbles.

Hang on there - when did Israel come to exist, and why do the people who were there prior to the creation of Israel have no rights? and would you be so alright if illegal immigrants took an American state and declared it Mexico?

What if liberals come to dominate politics? Does that mean your rights are moot, or is it only if they form militias and take your stuff to give it to the poor by force that youĺll be happy with them?

This whole might makes right thing is full of holes. But we know that. Itĺs just that Palestinian rights are not supported by the right authorities so we are pretending its ok.


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"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."
Blakenzy
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 04:17:57 AM »

Hang on there - when did Israel come to exist, and why do the people who were there prior to the creation of Israel have no rights? and would you be so alright if illegal immigrants took an American state and declared it Mexico?

What if liberals come to dominate politics? Does that mean your rights are moot, or is it only if they form militias and take your stuff to give it to the poor by force that youĺll be happy with them?

This whole might makes right thing is full of holes. But we know that. Itĺs just that Palestinian rights are not supported by the right authorities so we are pretending its ok.




True.
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"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"
dogmush
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 04:22:44 AM »

The Palestinians started the war how??? By emigrating to Europe and fighting people there? When was this ôweĺll wipe them off the face of the earthö war?

Israeli talking points are not synonymous with historical fact.

Palestine was not a nation at the time.  Jordan who had East Jerusalem after the founding of Israel (by treaty) engaged in a war, and lost, and the Jordanian territory was annexed.  

You could argue that the very formation of Israel was kinda a dick move by the allies, but again, we won the war, so we got to decide.

Quote
So rights be damned - might makes right.  I suppose youĺll be as sanguine if the government confiscated your guns and home and then claims that their overwhelming resource advantage justifies it.


False equivalency is false.  Conduct between nations =/= conduct between a Republic and it's citizens.
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De Selby
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 04:26:53 AM »

Palestine was not a nation at the time.  Jordan who had East Jerusalem after the founding of Israel (by treaty) engaged in a war, and lost, and the Jordanian territory was annexed.  

You could argue that the very formation of Israel was kinda a dick move by the allies, but again, we won the war, so we got to decide.
 

False equivalency is false.  Conduct between nations =/= conduct between a Republic and it's citizens.

Israel was not founded by treaty. Nor was it founded with the consent of anything approaching a majority of people who lived there at the time.

The ôalliesö didnĺt form Israel.

How does a deprivation of rights become more acceptable between two nations as compared to by one nation against the people who live in it???
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"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."
dogmush
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2018, 04:39:16 AM »

The State of Israel came from the end of the British Mandate and the idea of a UN resolution.  In 1947 the UN was, effectively, the Allies, so while not 100% accurate it's handy shorthand.  I admit it skips a year or so of civil war.

The treaty I referenced was the 1949 Armistice agreements which divided East and West Jerusalem.  Had Jordan stayed out of the 6 Day War in 1967, they would still have control of East Jerusalem, Their annexation would probably be recognized by more than just the UK by now, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.  They didn't, They lost, and Israel annexed the rest of the city.


ETA:  It's entertaining to me that De Selby has drawn me into this particular argument.  I am not a fan of Israel.  I don't like their government, the way they treat citizens, or the way they manipulate public sentiment in what is a complicated, very long running feud.  That said, they are a sovereign nation and get to pick their capital, and they picked Jerusalem.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2018, 04:58:34 AM »

Hang on there - when did Israel come to exist, and why do the people who were there prior to the creation of Israel have no rights? and would you be so alright if illegal immigrants took an American state and declared it Mexico?

What if liberals come to dominate politics? Does that mean your rights are moot, or is it only if they form militias and take your stuff to give it to the poor by force that youĺll be happy with them?

This whole might makes right thing is full of holes. But we know that. Itĺs just that Palestinian rights are not supported by the right authorities so we are pretending its ok.


Israel did not appropriate land to create Israel. Was there a country called "Palestine" from which the territory that became Israel was appropriated? Didn't think so.

That's all I'm going to say.
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TommyGunn
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2018, 06:09:13 AM »

Because it is now on land that at least under the international laws recognised by the western world belongs to them, and the point of its being moved is to endorse Israelĺs annexation of that land by force.



Does Israel think Jerusalem belongs to the Palestinians? rolleyes
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MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero
TommyGunn
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2018, 06:14:04 AM »

Hang on there - when did Israel come to exist, and why do the people who were there prior to the creation of Israel have no rights? and would you be so alright if illegal immigrants took an American state and declared it Mexico?

What if liberals come to dominate politics? Does that mean your rights are moot, or is it only if they form militias and take your stuff to give it to the poor by force that youĺll be happy with them?

This whole might makes right thing is full of holes. But we know that. Itĺs just that Palestinian rights are not supported by the right authorities so we are pretending its ok.




Israel existed in Biblical times,  looooong before Palestinians.   In 1948, Israel was re established to be a homeland fow the Jewish people.

Immediately upon forming,  it fell under attack by its neighbors,  and has been fighting on and off in defensive wars ever since.

There has never been a soveirgn land called Palestine.   The problem is really Jordan's .... but they won't accept the Palestinians since they want them to be a thorn in the side of the Israelis.
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MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero
TommyGunn
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2018, 06:16:33 AM »

The Palestinians started the war how??? By emigrating to Europe and fighting people there? When was this ôweĺll wipe them off the face of the earthö war?

Israeli talking points are not synonymous with historical fact.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PALESTINE. 
Respective terrorist outfits of "Palestinian" ethnicity have been running terrorist attacks against Israelis for years. 
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MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero
cordex
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2018, 06:58:31 AM »

If only Israel would have been willing to give the Palestinians their own state ... oh, say ... four or five times?

If only.
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TommyGunn
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2018, 07:04:30 AM »

I may be too cynical,  but I always thought that if the Palestinians did get their own state,  the first thing they'd do is declare war on Israel. shocked

Or .... maybe I'm just not cynical enough ......
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MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2018, 07:22:57 AM »

The "no such thing as a Palestinian" argument does not prove half of what some people seem to think it does.

"There was no such country as Palestine!" OK, but that doesn't mean the people (whatever you call them) who already lived there (whatever you call that piece of real estate) can't have valid complaints against the current state of Israel.

"There's no such ethnic group as Palestinian!" See above.

FWIW, I'm with Israel.

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"The ears of our generation have been made so delicate by the senseless multitude of flatterers that, as soon as we perceive that anything of ours is not approved of, we cry out that we are being bitterly assailed; and when we can repel the truth by no other pretense, we escape by attributing bitterness, impatience, intemperance, to our adversaries."
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MechAg94
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2018, 08:04:09 AM »

That whole area was controlled by the Ottoman Turks before WWI wasn't it?  It was the Armistice and primarily the British that drew the boundary lines for most of the Middle East in that area that still exist today.  You could make a lot of the same legitimacy arguments about the other nations in the area also.  The whole area is using boundaries drawn up by external powers.  
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"This observation, also, I have laid to heart, that they, who in matters of war seek in all ways to save their lives, are just they who, as a rule, die dishonorably; whereas they who, recognizing that death is the common lot and destiny of all men, strive hard to die nobly: these more frequently, as I observe, do after all attain to old age, or, at any rate, while life lasts, they spend their days more happily."  Xenophon
MechAg94
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2018, 08:19:09 AM »

ETA:  It's entertaining to me that De Selby has drawn me into this particular argument.  I am not a fan of Israel.  I don't like their government, the way they treat citizens, or the way they manipulate public sentiment in what is a complicated, very long running feud.  That said, they are a sovereign nation and get to pick their capital, and they picked Jerusalem.
I don't have an issue with criticism of Israel for what they have done, I just have gotten sick of people not calling out the Palestinian groups (and Muslim nations in the area) for the propaganda and political games they have played.  That is shown for all to see in the current Gaza border fighting.  Hamas complains about kids and disabled people getting hurt/killed, but no one asked why kids and disabled people were there to begin with when the entire thing was planned as a violent protest/riot to try to breach the Israeli border.
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"This observation, also, I have laid to heart, that they, who in matters of war seek in all ways to save their lives, are just they who, as a rule, die dishonorably; whereas they who, recognizing that death is the common lot and destiny of all men, strive hard to die nobly: these more frequently, as I observe, do after all attain to old age, or, at any rate, while life lasts, they spend their days more happily."  Xenophon
Ben
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2018, 09:35:41 AM »

why kids and disabled people were there to begin with when the entire thing was planned as a violent protest/riot to try to breach the Israeli border.

I saw a guy on crutches start running around and waving his crutches in the air as he taunted the Israelis. A number of the dead "protestors" appear to have been out of uniform members of their security forces.
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Fly320s
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2018, 09:42:34 AM »

A number of the dead "protestors" appear to have been out of uniform members of their security forces.

And some have itchy noses.

https://rumble.com/v55btb-at-first-glance-you-see-palestinian-martyrs-until-one-needs-to-scratch-his-.html
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2018, 11:06:20 AM »

I saw a guy on crutches start running around and waving his crutches in the air as he taunted the Israelis. A number of the dead "protestors" appear to have been out of uniform members of their security forces.


https://www.dailywire.com/news/30698/senior-hamas-official-50-those-killed-gaza-were-ben-shapiro
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--Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2018, 12:04:38 PM »


Israeli talking points are not synonymous with historical fact.

Neither are yours.
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Amy Schumer
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I spent a week in that town one night....


« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2018, 02:35:20 PM »

It's nice to see De Selby advocating for the return of Pomerania, Silesia, Alsace-Lorraine and Prussia (both East and West) to it's right owners, the Germans who were forced out during and after WWII.  
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2018, 05:53:36 PM »

It's nice to see De Selby advocating for the return of Pomerania, Silesia, Alsace-Lorraine and Prussia (both East and West) to it's right owners, the Germans who were forced out during and after WWII.  

He's right, we should give back California. I guess that would mean Texas too, but we can just spread that rumor and let it fix itself. Who knew that the world's largest mechanized army consisted entirely of diesel pickups? Cheesy  Oh and Spain? Florida is free, no, you have to take it, tired of the crazy news. Hmm, this is fun. Maybe we get our (a gift for the Dutch) beads back and the Indians can deal with Cuomo, Deblasio, and Nixon in NYC.
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RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2018, 06:05:44 PM »

It's nice to see De Selby advocating for the return of Pomerania, Silesia, Alsace-Lorraine and Prussia (both East and West) to it's right owners, the Germans who were forced out during and after WWII.  

While we're at it let's restore the Ottoman Empire to it's pre WW I former glory.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2018, 07:55:42 PM »

While we're at it let's restore the Ottoman Empire to it's pre WW I former glory.

Fear not, Erdogan is hard at work on your agenda.
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HankB
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2018, 04:14:13 AM »

It's nice to see De Selby advocating for the return of Pomerania, Silesia, Alsace-Lorraine and Prussia (both East and West) to it's right owners, the Germans who were forced out during and after WWII.  
Pretty soon parts of central America will be returned to the Aztecs - maybe they can start cutting people's hearts out again, this time on Pay Per View.

And as for Israel . . . the Dome of the Rock mosque on the Temple Mount should be torn down, since the Temple Mount edifice was built by Jews around 2000 years ago, more or less in the same place as the First Temple which was itself built around 1000 years earlier by King David who ruled the Kingdom of Israel and Judah. So Israels' claim to the land only goes back a paltry 3000 years or so.

Hmmm . . . and the earlier claims to that territory are by what nation . . . ?
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