Ten automakers are sued in U.S. over 'deadly' keyless ignitions

[MechAg94]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-ignition-lawsuit/ten-automakers-are-sued-in-u-s-over-deadly-keyless-ignitions-idUSKCN0QV1PH20150826

(Reuters) - Ten of the world’s biggest automakers were sued on Wednesday by U.S. consumers who claim they concealed the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning in more than 5 million vehicles equipped with keyless ignitions, leading to 13 deaths.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/keyless-automobile-ignition-systems-are-fatally-flawed-critics-say-n490111

I don't have keyless ignition.  However, I was thinking about a new vehicle later this year which would have that feature. 

I can understand wanting an auto-shutoff feature, but I am not seeing why the automakers are to blame.  A driver could just as easily walk away with their key left in the ignition.  The keyless ignition might make that easier to do, but it isn't a new risk.  Also, I can see not noticing a car is running outside, but in a garage, that noise is more obvious. 

The lawsuit was filed in the same federal court in Los Angeles where Toyota has defended against claims that its vehicles accelerated unintentionally.

U.S. District Judge James Selna in July 2013 approved a $1.6 billion settlement to resolve claims that Toyotas lost value because of that defect. The ignition lawsuit was assigned to U.S. District Judge Andre Birotte.

I am sure this was just a coincidence.  

[T.O.M.]

My wife's Ford has keyless ignition.  If you get out of the car with the engine still running, first there are alarm chimes inside the car that go off when you open the door.  The car then honks the horn if the car is still running and the driver's door is opened then closed.  So, there are warnings that the car gives you before you walk away from a running vehicle. 

Now, as to a shut off feature, I'm a little concerned about that, and here's why.  From time to time, the car will give a warning that the key is not detected while driving down the street.  Sometimes it depends on where SWMBO has the "key" in her purse.  For me, it depends on what else I have in my pocket with the "key,"  (and I seem to find that if I am carrying the key fob in my right pocket and carrying a handgun at appendix back to around 3 o'clock on my waste, or if I am carrying a larger folding knife clipped on my right pocket like my RAT-1).  With an auto shutoff feature, my worry is that I'm driving down the street, the "key" is not detected, and I either need to scramble to dig the damn thing out of my pocket, or the engine shuts off.  That would be bad.

[Ben]

Interesting coincidence. Last week my 90 year old dad took what he says will be his last drivers license renewal test before he gives up driving. In celebration of passing it, a couple of hours later we were sitting in the BMW dealership doing the paperwork on the new 530i he just bought. It's the first keyless vehicle I've dealt with.

While I had no problem with it, one of the first things my dad did was start to exit the vehicle with the engine running. His unfamiliarity with the system, coupled with his degraded hearing, coupled with a very quiet and smooth engine, had him exiting the car without realizing the engine was on. It happened while I was helping him figure all the doodads out, so we made sure to create a simple system to let him make sure the engine is off before he walks away from the car (like checking the tach needle).

So I can certainly see how this could easily happen, though I tend toward "personal responsibility" as the solution.  I suppose it wouldn't be difficult for manufacturers to install a sensor in the drivers seat that turns off the engine when there's no driver in the car, much as the the seatbelt sensor goes off when it detects weight. Though I guess that would cancel remote start for vehicles with that capability.

[dogmush]

Both my '14 BMW and Mrs. Mush's 15 Mazda have keyless ignition.  I've gotten out with them running (on purpose) several times and both cars lose their damn minds when you do that.  Various beeps, honks, chirps and lights go off.  You aren't going to actually walk away from the vehicle unless you are impressively oblivious.

The lawsuit is ambulance chasing crap (IMHO) that will probably mess up one of the truly handy improvements in cars in the last decade.  I love not having to dig keys out to get in and drive.

[Hawkmoon]

If they can have a seatbelt warning interlock built into the driver's seat, and they can have seat occupant interlocks for airbags, there is no reason why they can't easily have a driver's seat interlock for the ignition.

Personally, I don't ever want a vehicle that doesn't use a key.

[Fly320s]

The lawsuit is ambulance chasing crap (IMHO)

Bingo.

I'm a fan of keyless ignition.  Both my Explorer and 228i have it.

In all of the cars I've owned or driven, I have never accidentally walked away from a running car.

[grampster]

I've had keyless cars for a nearly a decade.  I just got a new '18 Chevy Colorado 4x4.  It has an ignition key.  I'm having an awful time getting remembering that.   I get in the truck and have to get the key out of my pocket, especially when I have my seat belt on already.   Having to dig it out or get out of the truck to get it out of my pocket is a pain.  Pavlov's grampster.

[K Frame]

"though I tend toward "personal responsibility" as the solution."

How the hell are you going to win a huge settlement if you take personal responsibility?

Don't you know it's everyone else's fault?

[Ben]

Both my '14 BMW and Mrs. Mush's 15 Mazda have keyless ignition.  I've gotten out with them running (on purpose) several times and both cars lose their damn minds when you do that.  Various beeps, honks, chirps and lights go off.  You aren't going to actually walk away from the vehicle unless you are impressively oblivious.

I caught my dad's faux pas before he exited the vehicle. If I wasn't headed out the door for a road trip right now I would try it, but do the alarms go off when you exit, or after you start walking out of fob range?  I see some situations where you want the engine running with you not in the vehicle. Checking the engine, etc. A lot of F150 owners (with or without pushbutton start) like the door keypad because in places like Texas, they can go into the quickie mart and leave the engine (and AC) on when it's 110 outside while keeping the doors locked and thieves out.

Hawkmoon is going to be out of luck. I except in the next five years you won't see a single vehicle with a mechanical key.

[TommyGunn]

Huh.  
My Toyota Camry has keyless ignition.  I'm not sure how one .... "forgets" to turn off the engine upon leaving.  

Of course the Camry's 3.5 liter V6  is a bit .... noticeable ... while running....

Turning an engine off has become difficult?


The Snowflakes are winning!

[MechAg94]

I also still don't see how the risk is different with a key.  Sure, my house keys are attached to the same key ring, but sometimes that isn't the case.  Would they tie a shut off to the seat to detect someone in the seat? 

I can see another round of lawsuits later when a car shuts off while the driving heading down a busy highway at speed.

[Brad Johnson]

SWMBO's new Taurus is keyless. Actually kinda handy. Everyday pocket-to-keyhook regimen remains the same. Only substative difference between "real" key and keyless is no fumbling around trying to fish out a key in the rain, or in the dark of night. Fob in your pocket, it goes. No fob, it doesn't.  Walk away from it with the fob in pocket while it's running and it jumps all over you via the horn.

Also, you can use remote start to startle the bejeebers out of your non-technosavvy mother. She thinks the car just randomly starts on its own. She hasn't figured out her Tahoe has the same feature.  

Brad

[dogmush]

I caught my dad's faux pas before he exited the vehicle. If I wasn't headed out the door for a road trip right now I would try it, but do the alarms go off when you exit, or after you start walking out of fob range?  I see some situations where you want the engine running with you not in the vehicle. Checking the engine, etc. A lot of F150 owners (with or without pushbutton start) like the door keypad because in places like Texas, they can go into the quickie mart and leave the engine (and AC) on when it's 110 outside while keeping the doors locked and thieves out.

Hawkmoon is going to be out of luck. I except in the next five years you won't see a single vehicle with a mechanical key.

I honestly don't remember because I coded all the alarms out of mine.  They annoyed me when I left it running to cool down the interior, so I modded it to be quiet when I walked away.  I wonder if I can get in on the suit.  :D

[lupinus]

If they can have a seatbelt warning interlock built into the driver's seat, and they can have seat occupant interlocks for airbags, there is no reason why they can't easily have a driver's seat interlock for the ignition.

Personally, I don't ever want a vehicle that doesn't use a key.

No way in hell I want the damned thing shutting off or chirping every five seconds cause it thinks I'm not in the seat.

None of the current cars are keyless, but I've used keyless rides. Its a nifty feature.

I honestly don't know why any new cars bother to have a keyed ignition anymore. Even the keyed vehicles have coded keys and have for years. I don't think I've seen any new car in years that didn't. It seems like it'd actually be more of a hassle to still include the keyed ignition.

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[KD5NRH]

All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off.  I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.

[dogmush]

All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off.  I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.

You need a new car.  Lots of vehicles allow you to roll up the windows after you turn the car off.  I rent a lot of cars for travel, and I'd say 65% or so of them let you do that.


Your messing around with other peoples cars is still stymied however, as most will disable the window up function if you open a door.

[Firethorn]

Turning an engine off has become difficult?

No, the indicators that you need to have become less obvious. Remember, some cars will even shut off when stopped to save gas.

Im going to go with a different preventative measure. Monoxide detectors are like $40.  Will protect against all sources of monoxide.

[TommyGunn]

No, the indicators that you need to have become less obvious. Remember, some cars will even shut off when stopped to save gas.

Im going to go with a different preventative measure. Monoxide detectors are like $40.  Will protect against all sources of monoxide.

I'd forgotten some cars do that,  but I still don't quite understand forgetting to turn off the car when you park it and enter your house.  Get home....turn engine off ... go inside.   Simple as pie.
But, hey,  maybe that's just me.

[Fly320s]

Remember, some cars will even shut off when stopped to save gas.

My BMW does that, but I have the option to turn-off that feature, and I have. 

A very small percentage of the driving population can't hear or otherwise tell when their car is running, but they want everyone else to confrim to their standards.  Welcome to the modern world.

[griz]

It would be interesting to know how many accidental deaths resulted from keyed vehicles left running.  I've known two people who forgot to turn off their cars.  Both had keys in them.  I see most folks here immediately turn off their car when they park, but it's not a habit everybody has.  Some people sit there and look at their phones, put loose stuff in a bag, or just have some reason to wait.  They leave the engine running until they get out, and sometimes longer.

[Doggy Daddy]

...A lot of F150 owners (with or without pushbutton start) like the door keypad because in places like Texas, they can go into the quickie mart and leave the engine (and AC) on when it's 110 outside while keeping the doors locked and thieves out.

 It is also nice when you're stopping at the Amazon Locker on the way home in Las Vegas.  Also, my Altima does NOT go crazy with beeps, sirens, flashers, and/or grabs at my shirt collar to tell me I left the car running.  It just sits there and waits for me to come back.  There is a little "bloopy" noise when I first get out, though.

[T.O.M.]

I'll add this, now that I've thought about it.  I was in a hurry one time, driving SWMBO's car.  Pulled up, parked, and thought I had hit the button to shut off the engine.  When I got out, the car honked at me, and it took me a minute to figure out why it had honked at me.  Turns out that on her Ford, you have to have your foot on the brake for the button to be functional.  I had my foot off the brake, so hitting the button did not shut down the engine.  Add some hearing issues, I guess it could be a problem.

[lupinus]

All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off.  I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.

You have to step up to the 1000 shitbox for that add on. Not available on the 500 shitbox.

I just want the *expletive deleted*ing wipers to complete the cycle and come to rest in the down position.

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[freakazoid]

Interesting. Not to long ago I read an article about keyless cars being left on and posted a thing from it here. http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=57425.0
Coincidence or 

[Calumus]

All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off.  I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.

VWs and Audis can be coded to let you open and close the windows and sunroof from the key Fob. It's been possible since about the 99 model year.