Ten automakers are sued in U.S. over 'deadly' keyless ignitions

[dogmush]

VWs and Audis can be coded to let you open and close the windows and sunroof from the key Fob. It's been possible since about the 99 model year.

BMW's as well.  Key Fob or the little spot you touch to lock it.

[Ben]

I'd forgotten some cars do that,  but I still don't quite understand forgetting to turn off the car when you park it and enter your house.  Get home....turn engine off ... go inside.   Simple as pie.
But, hey,  maybe that's just me.

In my dad's case he's a 90 year old guy who went from 25 years of driving barebones Rangers (and other simple cars/trucks before that) to a car that rivals the space shuttle for nifty doodads. It takes some learning, especially for someone older. Now that he's familiarized himself with it, he's fine. He's been driving for 70 years with a key. That has always been his "cue" for making sure the engine is shut off - removing the key from the ignition. Now he has had to learn something new.

[230RN]

(Reuters) - Ten of the world’s biggest automakers were sued on Wednesday by U.S. consumers who claim they concealed the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning in more than 5 million vehicles equipped with keyless ignitions, leading to 13 deaths.

Seems to me the "concealed," if proven, is pretty important.  Not that the alleged 13 deaths (if verified) aren't, but let's remember what happened with the Ford and Chevy gas tank problems.  If people had known about those vulnerabilities*, some might not have purchased those vehicles as part of their decisioneering.

How many might have been saved, nobody can guess, nobody can know, but it's apparently (if the 13 number is true) something I'd like to know before deciding on a particular model with a particular feature.  You can't casually dismiss a symptom like that ("13 deaths") as a mere matter of personal responsibilty.

Terry, 230RN

(*ETA:  Don't bother pointing out how the tests by the TV station were rigged.  That's "show biz" and immaterial to the matters at fact.)

REF (Sample):
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/

[freakazoid]

Seems to me the "concealed," if proven, is pretty important.  Not that the alleged 13 deaths (if verified) aren't, but let's remember what happened with the Ford and Chevy gas tank problems.  If people had known about those vulnerabilities*, some might not have purchased those vehicles as part of their decisioneering.

How many might have been saved, nobody can guess, nobody can know, but it's apparently (if the 13 number is true) something I'd like to know before deciding on a particular model with a particular feature.  You can't casually dismiss a symptom like that ("13 deaths") as a mere matter of personal responsibilty.

Terry, 230RN

(*ETA:  Don't bother pointing out how the tests by the TV station were rigged.  That's "show biz" and immaterial to the matters at fact.)

REF:
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/10/us/4.9-billion-jury-verdict-in-gm-fuel-tank-case.html

Don't really see how they concealed this. It's like saying they concealed the danger of driving and drinking, or concealed driving without a seatbelt, or concealed driving without using the windshield wipers while it rains, etc.

[230RN]

^ "Don't really see how they concealed this."

"If proven."  I didn't fall off the allegation truck just yesterday, doncha know.

PS. I  changed the REF to a cleaner one:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/

Apparently Ford didn't use their shredders at the time, so there was "proof" left behind back then.

Worth a read all the way through, although at the end, the writer tries to scoop up the poop he dropped all through the article.

There also were problems with the Chevy pickup sidesaddle tanks, which is less known.

[p12]

It would be easy for someone that has used a key for 30 years and now have to learn a new habit, then under stress or in a huff revert back to old habits and leave the engine running. Especially if that someone still gets in and out with key in hand. Old habit key in hand = engine off.

If they used the passive system right the key never leaves purse or pocket. I’ve had women come into the shop and when I asked for the key they had to dump the contents of their purse to find it.

A fix: A simple timer for engine running with no weight on the driver’s seat. 10 minutes and shut down. Key fob in car or not. Same as remote start. It only runs a few minutes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MechAg94]

The danger of running a vehicle in an enclosed space has been widely known for a long time.  I am not sure what they had been hiding.  Since most cars seem to have ways of letting the driver know the car is still running, the question is going to be what is known about that and what process the companies went through to add the extra programming.  I would also be curious about those 13 deaths and the circumstances.  I bet they all weren't very simple.

[Calumus]

Do the BMWs have a starter button that's removable? The one in my Challenger pops right out, then you just use the Fob like a key. One less new habit to have to learn..

[Fly320s]

Do the BMWs have a starter button that's removable? The one in my Challenger pops right out, then you just use the Fob like a key. One less new habit to have to learn..

I don't think so.  At least mine doesn't do that.

[Brad Johnson]

If they consider "hazards of a vehicle idling in an enclosed space" as some kind of new thing, I weep for this nation.

Brad

[T.O.M.]

Okay, here's an update to  my earlier posts.  Over the weekend, we went to a friend's house out in the country to attend a graduation party.  Wife left her purse in her car when we arrived, with the "key" inside.  It honked at us to let us know it was in the car when we got out.  Two honks.  Later, she got her purse and took it in the house for some reason.  When we were leaving, we realized she'd left the purse inside.  I had my key fob in my pocket.  She was driving (i'd had a few drinks).  She pulled up next to the house, and I got out and went to get her purse.  When I got out with the key in my pocket, the car still running, it did the same two honks as when we left the key in the car.  Oh, and the car kept running the whole time.  Bottom line is that the car will honk twice if it wants your attention, no matter the reason.

Why am I saying all of this?  I know lots of people who will leave the "key" in the cupholder of the car when they get home and park in their garage.  So, they must get used to the two honks when they close the car door.  If the car makes the same noise when you leave a key in the car as it does when you leave it running, I can now understand how it could be an issue. 

[Brad Johnson]

Why am I saying all of this?  I know lots of people who will leave the "key" in the cupholder of the car when they get home and park in their garage. 

If someone leaves the key in the car at all, it's the person's decision or inattentive mistake, not the manufacturer's fault. Keyless systems aren't magic, they're just a convenient way to not have to insert a physical key into the ignition. The owner still has to exercise a modicum of reasonable care. Openly ignoring the very warning which tells you that you're being dumb is, well, dumb.

Leaving the fob in the car is also an open invitation to get your vehicle stolen. Even locking the door with Ford's keyless system is useless if the thief knows to tag the window and hit the interior unlock button first. Every year when it starts getting cold we have a rash of driveway burglaries from people letting their cars warm up in the driveway, keys dangling enticingly in the ignition. At least keyless systems with remote start let you warm the car with some reasonable amount of theft protection. In SWMBO's Taurus you have to step on the brake with the key inside the vehicle to unlock the system even though the car may have been sitting there running for several minutes.

Finally, it's a good way to have your insurance company deny a theft claim (my policy very specifically states that leaving the keys in the vehicle, no matter where the vehicle may be, is bad, m'kay...).

Brad

[230RN]

If they consider "hazards of a vehicle idling in an enclosed space" as some kind of new thing, I weep for this nation.

Brad

Yet it still happens to normal human beings, and automatically putting the blame back on the consumer does not make sense.  Remember that the next time you forget your house keys or to turn "something" off in the house when you leave.

Or leave a window open and it rains like hell while you're gone.

People forget.  Fact.

I had a Datsun 310 GX with a well-balanced 4-cylinder engine which, when idling, was almost dead silent and vibrationless.  It was like an electric motor somehow, and several times passengers had asked if the engine had died while we were stopped at a traffic light.  Since I've always kept my car key on a small carabiner separate from my house keys, it happened at least twice that I got in the house and remembered I had left the key in the car with it running.

I ain't as perfect as some folks, I guess.

I'd still like to see the details on the "13 deaths," but reflexedly shifting blame back to the consumer for what might very possibly become a more frequent problem don't cut it nohow for me.  It's clear this might soon be considered a design or manufacturing defect.  We'll see if the outcome of that suit confirms my view or yours.

But if I had an extra ten bucks, I'd bet it on a shut your mouth/out of court settlement to avoid having the details get too public, and then a quiet redesign to eliminate the problem.

Terry, 230RN

[Brad Johnson]

People forget.  Fact.

Agreed, but putting the onus and liability on manufacturers to "protect people from themselves" steps into to the liberal mindset of "we know whats better for you than you do". That's a path I'd rather not take.

We've spent generations removing responsibility from the individual and placing it on the manufacturer. Now we're reaping the benefits; a society who not only expects to be protected from everything, but also subsidized when willful ignorance and decision making are patently counter-productive to the point of personal harm. I can't agree with that.

Brad

[230RN]

Well, we'll see, won't we?

I guess it's a difference in philosophy.  We, as humans, do not set "flag bits" to absolutely stop the program to put the groceries away and close the garage door if the fob is in one's pocket.  :D

And I don't think it's fair to link your  perceptions of the global dangers of "a society who which not only expects to be protected from everything" to this particular case, where emerging technology might develop new unforeseen dangers.

There's a word for that in sophomoric debating tactics.

Stick to the matter at hand, please.  And I don't see "willful" in the problem unless it shows up in the details of those 13 deaths.

Terry

Insert your inevitable "last word" here.  I'm done with this one.   :

[Ben]

Yet it still happens to normal human beings, and automatically putting the blame back on the consumer does not make sense.  Remember that the next time you forget your house keys or to turn "something" off in the house when you leave.

This is a very good point. I know that as little as I care about an "Internet connected kitchen", the next time I buy a stove, if it's at all reasonably priced, I want one that I can send an ""off" command to from my phone when I'm twenty miles away at the start of a road trip and think, "Did I turn the burner off?" I have more than once turned around to verify that.

Again, not that I want government control, but "forgetting" certainly seems like something ripe for a market solution. Whether it's a user programmable "the engine turns off in 10 minutes as a default" or what.  I don't think most people take longer than that in the quicke mart, or run the engines longer than that to heat the interior in the Winter. But if it's a programmable feature offered the consumer, why not?

Now if this actually was a design flaw (like faulty airbags), I'd be good with gov involvement. But the car is doing what it's designed to do, so no gov, but I think market solutions/alternatives would be a good thing.

[Fly320s]

There is a simple solution to all of those "I forgot" problems:  A checklist.

Whether you are naturally forgetful or getting older or easily distracted, using a checklist can help prevent problems from arising.  And I bet many of you already use a mental checklist everyday.  "Keys, wallet, phone."   And probably at night, too.  "Locks, lights, alarms."  If a mental cheklist isn't good enough, make a written one and tape it to the door you exit.  Or place it in your car.  Or the bathroom mirror.

We all forget things everyday.  Maybe it is a minor issue, maybe we nearly burn the house down, but all of those "oh, crap!" moments help to build memory and triggers that will make it less likely that it happens again.

The more we remove responsibilty from the individual, the more dependent we make individuals.

[freakazoid]

Yet it still happens to normal human beings, and automatically putting the blame back on the consumer does not make sense.  Remember that the next time you forget your house keys or to turn "something" off in the house when you leave.

I'd still like to see the details on the "13 deaths," but reflexedly shifting blame back to the consumer for what might very possibly become a more frequent problem don't cut it nohow for me.  It's clear this might soon be considered a design or manufacturing defect.  We'll see if the outcome of that suit confirms my view or yours.

But it is entirely the consumers fault.
If I ND a pistol and injure myself or someone else, is that the manufacturers fault? After all, it still happens to normal human beings. Should they be required to put some sort of stupid device on them in order to make the chances of that happening even less likely, no.

[RoadKingLarry]

There is a simple solution to all of those "I forgot" problems:  A checklist.

Whether you are naturally forgetful or getting older or easily distracted, using a checklist can help prevent problems from arising.  And I bet many of you already use a mental checklist everyday.  "Keys, wallet, phone."   And probably at night, too.  "Locks, lights, alarms."  If a mental cheklist isn't good enough, make a written one and tape it to the door you exit.  Or place it in your car.  Or the bathroom mirror.

We all forget things everyday.  Maybe it is a minor issue, maybe we nearly burn the house down, but all of those "oh, crap!" moments help to build memory and triggers that will make it less likely that it happens again.

The more we remove responsibilty from the individual, the more dependent we make individuals.

I've got a start-up and shut-down list for my boat. Reminders to shut the through-hull valves, close and dog the forward hatch and turn off the battery selector switch and A/C panel breakers. I got a bit of a reminder over Memorial Day weekend to use the damn checklist. I "got in a hurry" on Friday evening and left one of the through hull valves open. That particular valve also supplies the raw water wash down pump via a strainer. I found out the hard way that the plastic strainer had apparently not been drained well enough when I winterized the boat and had cracked from freezing over the winter. First thing I do when I open the boat is check the bilge level. Unless I've done something like drain the ice chest to the bilge it is usually dust bunny dry. after sailing Friday evening I came back Saturday morning and found about 2' of water in the bilge.  If I'd done that and left it for a week I'd probably have sunk my boat at the dock.
Who do I get to sue?

[Fly320s]

Who do I get to sue?

The boat manufacturer, the through hull valve maker, the bilge pump maker, the dock owner, the Corp of Engineers (or whoever owns the lake), for starters.