Author Topic: Troubling US Navy review finds widespread shortfalls in basic seamanship  (Read 2804 times)

MechAg94

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https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/06/06/troubling-us-navy-review-finds-widespread-shortfalls-in-basic-seamanship/

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Led by the Surface Warfare Officer School, officer of the deck competency checks were conducted on a random selection of OOD-qualified first-tour division officers (the newest officers in the fleet) in underway bridge navigation simulators fleet-wide between January and March. Of the 164 officers who were evaluated, only 27 passed with “no concerns.” Another 108 completed with “some concerns,” and 29 had “significant concerns,” according to the message, which was released by the Navy’s top surface warfare officer Vice Adm. Richard Brown.

I figure some of the Navy vets here will get more out of this than I do.  I guess it is expected after the collisions in recent years.
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bedlamite

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Not really a surprise, Strings was in the NAVY and he couldn't hold on to a 16' runabout while I parked the trailer.
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RoadKingLarry

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The more things change the more they stay the same.
I've been out 26 years next month. So my "data" is likely a little out of date.
It was SOP that after any incident, first and foremost, the most important task was placement of blame, at the lowest level possible.
When my boat grounded on approach to Charleston it was determined that "significant contributing factors" included; navigation charts not properly updated, because a bouy 8 Nm from our location was not properly marked per latest NOTAM. The RADAR contact log was not being properly updated, a tanker that had passed astern  of us on an opposite course 20 minutes prior was improperly recorded. As well as several other trivial items.
Nevermind the fact that during the piloting brief the night before the Navigator repeatedly stress that we.would be crossing a strong south to north current from east.to west and we needed to stay center channel and maintain at least 5 knots.
Bad weather with heavy rain squalls was The order of the day. During the transit the Engineering Officer and the CO  were on the bridge driving. A large merchant ship was coming up behind and the Eng and CO decided to let him pass on our port side, they slowed to 4 knots and moved to the right. Less than 5 minutes later after the entire control room navigation team "strongly recommended" increasing speed and coming left we scraped all the sonar projections off the bottom of the hull.
The CO and Eng managed to keep their jobs. The Navigator was reprimanded and the Quartermaster Chief got an NJP. Several other careers were damaged. It was the beginning of the end of mine as well. While I had received no reprimands the BS level went to 11. I took an early out less.than a year later.

The beatings were promised to go away once moral improved.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

T.O.M.

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Should be interesting for me to watch, as my son starts NROTC this fall, to see what his training will entail.  I know his NROTC unit has a strong Marine Corps presence, and firearms training for all Midhsipmen is more frequent and involved than some Army ROTC units.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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dogmush

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I have met some Navy officers that were capable sailors in my career.

I have also met several that wouldn't qualify to run even a small Army boat.


I suspect that a close examination would find that while seamanship is lacking, their Sexual Harassment, EO, and Suicide Prevention training was all up to date.

Hawkmoon

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I suspect that a close examination would find that while seamanship is lacking, their Sexual Harassment, EO, and Suicide Prevention training was all up to date.

I don't know why Navy officers need any more training in sexual harassment -- they seem to be pretty adept at it.


Took me a minute to figure out why "EO" was in there. As a one-time Army Combat Engineer, to me EO is "Explosive Ordnance." Then I remembered -- that was then, this is now.
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230RN

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I was dipping through the Save the SS United States videos and totally coincidentally found this on "sailing."

https://youtu.be/yqwb4HIrORM

I'll have to watch it a couple of times.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

BobR

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I suspect that a close examination would find that while seamanship is lacking, their Sexual Harassment, EO, and Suicide Prevention training was all up to date.

More truth to that than people realize! :(


bob


RoadKingLarry

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I was dipping through the Save the SS United States videos and totally coincidentally found this on "sailing."

https://youtu.be/yqwb4HIrORM

I'll have to watch it a couple of times.

Wind blows, boat goes. What more do you need to know?

They lost me with the first mis-statement about square rigged ships.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

230RN

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I wondered about that myself.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

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They lost me with the first mis-statement about square rigged ships.

You caught that, too, eh? Pretty dumb. If that had been true, Columbus could never have reached North America from Europe.
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230RN

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Note flag on top of the mast.  I could swear I've seen a legitimate painting of a sailing ship in full sail with a flag on the mast blowing toward the stern.

Stern, that's the back end of the boat, did I get that right?
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

French G.

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I have met some Navy officers that were capable sailors in my career.

I have also met several that wouldn't qualify to run even a small Army boat.


I suspect that a close examination would find that while seamanship is lacking, their Sexual Harassment, EO, and Suicide Prevention training was all up to date.
yep

First off, I firmly believe that my home for 22 years is the world's best Navy. That said, it could use work. And the issue no matter the platform, mission, or community is task dilution. If you correctly did every required task to attain proficiency you would take a sailor's first six months and turn it into three years. We want too many boxes checked. So they get checked.

Me, I was a pretty decent aircraft mechanic. I left my reserve command as a quality assurance rep, but not full systems because as a reservist I did not have enough platform time to be proficient in all the systems not mine. Believe me, they wanted me to be fully qualified, but hey, safety of flight and I know my limits. Could I change a motor if I had to? Sure, but was I comfortable teaching others, probably not. Hell, I was still learning stuff on the flight controls and troubleshooting when I left and that's my area. In the full time Navy I was still an aircraft mechanic but most of the time at a level I had to know some about ten different aircraft instead of everything about one. I was also responsible for the material condition of seventy spaces on the ship, keeping my minions in basic military standards, a metric crap ton of paperwork, welding stuff(my real job now), a pretty handy and highly trained shipboard firefighter and the list goes on. And I was just an underachiever First Class.

Now, take the life of the poor SWO.( That's Surface Warfare Officer if you're reading along Terry :D)  That is the general community we find all these hapless ship handler JOs in. And more than any other community it is a pressure cooker. First obviously, you crash ships. Then it truly is up or out. If you fall off track and don't reach O-4, buh bye. So they come to the fleet as little boot camp butter bars and boy are they dumb. And in a short time they are expected to know the ship inside and out, drive the ship, meet all kinds of qualifications in their actual work area, and oh yeah, run their enlisted crew of surly jerks like me. I know for a fact that I had several COs that were absolutely awesome to shoot the breeze with but had run junior officers off the bridge in tears. The first year on a ship is not much better than a plebe year, or the first weeks of boot camp. They have to perform, they need that good fitrep so they can be around to do a later division officer tour at sea, then a department head, then a lucky few in a command track. Lots of boxes, lots of checks, still only 24 hours.

We are asking too much. My solution, more specialists, reduce community transfers and forced rotations. I did mostly five year tours by choice. A standard is closer to three. Officers two. Stay there, get proficient. I could run down either of my ships blindfolded by year five, not so much year one.

Reduce up or out. I know good E-5s that used to be able to retire that were perfect techs and would or did make horrible E-6. There are good lieutenants that don't need ever command a ship. Keep them where they are good.

Address can't remember sh____  syndrome. We barely remember the Cole, let alone the Stark, Roberts, Belknap, or Forest Fire when it comes to shipboard damage control. As evidenced by my running battle with an E-8 trainer regarding flammable uniforms and fire fighting standards. Spoiler alert, I was right....
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

PEfarmer

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Part of the issue, IMHO, is that surface warfare is the career path of last resort, and is openly mocked by officers and candidates of the other lines.  We got the officers who weren't cool enough (or couldn't see) to fly, weren't smart enough to be in subs or nukes, weren't tough enough to be marines.  Not a recipe for high achieving officers.  

RoadKingLarry

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Yeah, It's not like they like to load up the ones that seem to be able to actually do something.
I was ET Div LPO, duty section leader (until I qualified COW/Duty Chief), TS/SCI material control petty officer, Nav-Ops Dept 3M coordinator (only dept on board to get a passing grade during the squadron review), Photographic Officer, Ships engraver, Morale and Welfare committee chairman. Stood underway watches as  Navigation ETOW, ESM ETOW, Secondary nav plot supervisor during piloting evolutions, surfaced control room supervisor, and the only E6 on board to stand Chief of the Watch and Duty Chief and I was the only non weapons dept person that could actually shoot the M14 with accuracy so every time we loaded "special" weapons I got to spend all day with an M14 slung over my shoulder.
And the XO still called me slacker because I didn't have enough collateral duties.
To this day I do not think I could have a cordial social meeting with that man.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

French G.

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Yeah, It's not like they like to load up the ones that seem to be able to actually do something.
I was ET Div LPO, duty section leader (until I qualified COW/Duty Chief), TS/SCI material control petty officer, Nav-Ops Dept 3M coordinator (only dept on board to get a passing grade during the squadron review), Photographic Officer, Ships engraver, Morale and Welfare committee chairman. Stood underway watches as  Navigation ETOW, ESM ETOW, Secondary nav plot supervisor during piloting evolutions, surfaced control room supervisor, and the only E6 on board to stand Chief of the Watch and Duty Chief and I was the only non weapons dept person that could actually shoot the M14 with accuracy so every time we loaded "special" weapons I got to spend all day with an M14 slung over my shoulder.
And the XO still called me slacker because I didn't have enough collateral duties.
To this day I do not think I could have a cordial social meeting with that man.


I was always about 30 of 100-140 E-6 in rankings. Holding me back? No shipwide collateral duties. I mean being a repair locker leader like I was? Oh big deal. Now say I pencil whipped my qualifications and was a DCTT? (Damage Control Trainer, Terry)  Oh, that would be top notch. Nevermind I probably couldn't lead a hose team to the wet end of a hose. Or maybe I should have spent more time on the CAT team making sure everyone talked about their equal opportunity feelings. Or got a volunteer sevice medal for lying on my eval about community service. A little salty? Yes and yes. But it is the same syndrome that wrecks these ships, number one first class was no better a leader than I, and in numerous years I can plainly say, a worthless POS. But boy, good on paper. Boxes checked.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Hawkmoon

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To this day I do not think I could have a cordial social meeting with that man.


Must be something about XOs. My company commander in Vietnam was pretty bad, but not bad enough that I remember his name. My XO? Oh, yes, I remember his name. And he'd better hope we never meet. To this day I do not understand how he made it out of Vietnam without having been fragged.
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230RN

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I was always about 30 of 100-140 E-6 in rankings. Holding me back? No shipwide collateral duties. I mean being a repair locker leader like I was? Oh big deal. Now say I pencil whipped my qualifications and was a DCTT? (Damage Control Trainer, Terry) Oh, that would be top notch. Nevermind I probably couldn't lead a hose team to the wet end of a hose. Or maybe I should have spent more time on the CAT team making sure everyone talked about their equal opportunity feelings. Or got a volunteer sevice medal for lying on my eval about community service. A little salty? Yes and yes. But it is the same syndrome that wrecks these ships, number one first class was no better a leader than I, and in numerous years I can plainly say, a worthless POS. But boy, good on paper. Boxes checked.

Ok, thanks to you and that other kind party who explained an acronym

Now I'm wondering what a Ship's Engraver is, per Road King Larry.  I poked around and could not find anything on it besides artists who engraved images of ships.  Is that a joke... a fake job description or something?

Terry, landlubber
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

BobR

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Ok, thanks to you and that other kind party who explained an acronym

Now I'm wondering what a Ship's Engraver is, per Road King Larry.  I poked around and could not find anything on it besides artists who engraved images of ships.  Is that a joke... a fake job description or something?

Terry, landlubber

I would bet he was the guy with the keys to the engraving machine, literally the Ship's Engraver. What ever needed engraving from the silver settings to crew name badges and brass plaques for the ship's awards to crew he probably got to do them. Let's see what he says. ;)

bob

French G.

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The engraving machine is a magical dispenser of favors and trade good. The parachute riggers worked for me, so their sewing black market was under my thumb. I had a welder. We always had favors in the bank.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

just Warren

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BobR

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The engraving machine is a magical dispenser of favors and trade good. The parachute riggers worked for me, so their sewing black market was under my thumb. I had a welder. We always had favors in the bank.

My only boat time, way back in 1972 to 1975, you always made friends with the Riggers and somebody that could cut hair. Our small shop had an official coffee mess so every week we went down and got a 20lb tin of coffee. I cannot tell you how valuable those became when we pulled into the yards and had yardbirds all over the boat. I had a 300 pair PBX cable that ran all over the boat for the airwing intercom system that was burned in half during a fire (which put us into the yards for 3 months) and was able to get them (yardbirds) to not only run a new one but also make sure it was in perfect working order for the mere sum of 60 pounds of coffee. :)

bob

RoadKingLarry

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I would bet he was the guy with the keys to the engraving machine, literally the Ship's Engraver. What ever needed engraving from the silver settings to crew name badges and brass plaques for the ship's awards to crew he probably got to do them. Let's see what he says. ;)

bob

Yup, when we made port in Italy I had only been on board a few weeks and hadn't been screwed by that command yet. I had learned to run the same type of machine while working as an adult leader for BSA. The command wanted to engrave some brass plates for ships plaques for some local muckty mucks but no one knew how to do it.  I made a major strategic error and told me dept head I could do it. A decision I soon came to regret.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

French G.

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Strings

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Not really a surprise, Strings was in the NAVY and he couldn't hold on to a 16' runabout while I parked the trailer.

I was also a snipe: rarely saw the outside of the ship, let alone played with lines. Dweeb

I also saw a tendancy to keep the dregs, but bounce the capable. Had one kid in A school, AWESOME tech. Got in trouble because his roomies brought beer into the barracks, was bounced. But one of the E4s in my shop, couldn't do anything (my list of duties read "PMS, Andy's PMS, trouble log, double check any trouble calls Andy signed off on"). E5 exam for IC, the fail point was like 8 points off: closest Andy ever came was 30 off. He was reenlisted shortly after
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