Author Topic: Chain of Command question  (Read 1363 times)

Hawkmoon

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Chain of Command question
« on: June 11, 2018, 01:13:09 AM »
I think I know the answer, but what do other veterans (especially officers) think about this? I discovered the complete series of the old 1960s show The Rat Patrol on Youtube, and I've been watching one to three episodes almost every night.

One of the ones I got to tonight involved the patrol ambushing a lone German staff car and rescuing a purported American major (who turned out to be a German imposter, but that's not the question). The patrol is commanded by a sergeant (3-striper). Their mission is to bring back a live German prisoner. The "major" tells them that his mission takes priority, and he orders them to take him to division headquarters. (The German plot, of course, is to track the patrol back to HQ so they can learn where it is.)

My understanding is that, despite a major obviously outranking a sergeant, the patrol should proceed with their original, assigned mission because the "major" isn't in their chain of command, so he has no authority to override their orders.

Correct, or incorrect?
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Scout26

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 03:22:53 AM »
Sorry, the Major's orders stand.   ANy failure to complete their previously assigned mission(s) falls on him and he becomes responsible.  He is in command. 


Similar scenarios were wargamed/role-played in the officer basic courses.  Most play out as something like the Kobayashi Maru where there are no "right" answers.  (Maybe some less bad, the general consensus being whatever does the most damage to the enemy/prevents the enemy from doing damages to your side is what you should do.)


But in the scenario, unless the major has something like the entire German battle plans or Hitler's schedule for the next month, then the Rat Patrol should continue their mission.*



* - When in doubt, march to the sound of the guns and kill anyone not dressed like you.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 03:43:26 AM by Amy Schumer »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 03:41:32 AM »

Well, you have me confused. Which is it?

Sorry, the Major's orders stand.   ANy failure to complete their previously assigned mission(s) falls on him and he becomes responsible.

or ...

Quote
But in the scenario, unless the major has something like the entire German battle plans or Hitler's schedule for the next month, then the Rat Patrol should continue their mission.*

The major's order was to abandon their assigned mission and take him directly to HQ. So you have just said that (a) the major's order stands, but the patrol should continue their assigned mission. Those are mutually exclusive options.
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Scout26

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 03:46:05 AM »
What I meant was that the Major should see that the Rat Patrol's mission trumps his own*.  In other words, listen to the advice and counsel of his NCO's.  But ultimately the decision as to how to proceed is his as he is in command.  The NCO's and soldiers jobs become to execute the Major's orders to the best of the their abilities.




* - Again, assuming he's a "real" American and not a German plant.  Although, in most situations where Americans are liberated from captivity, the primary mission becomes to repatriate them back to US forces and out of the war zone.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

230RN

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 05:00:08 AM »
That answer confused me, too.  I was going to ask about it myself.

Not even being military, I figured the local officer could over-rule the Sergeant's original mission.  Presumably the Sergeant would explain his original mission, and also presuming that he could not know the true allegiance of the Major, as with the, "Who won the 1938 World Series?" kind of stuff.

To save you the trouble of looking it up, the Yankees over the Cubs in a four game sweep.

(Damn Yankees anyhow.)

Terry
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 05:57:34 AM by 230RN »

dogmush

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 05:08:14 AM »
Amy is mostly correct. However, it's worth noting that there have been specific standing orders in every conflict zone I've been in regarding this very scenario.  Usually they say something like "due to [reasons] former POW's that have been rescued/escaped are still offically "prisoners" until you get them to the rear and they are checked out by higher.  They are outside the Chain of Command until such time."

Folks that have been released from long captivity have been known to do crazy things and make poor decisions, and the Chain of Command knows this.

Fly320s

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 06:22:10 AM »
What if the sargeant's orders came from a higher-ranking officer such as a Colonel?  The Colonel at HQ outranks the Major in the field.
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Devonai

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2018, 08:19:41 AM »
Thankfully, peacetime operations are easier to determine.  If some random O4 (or anybody) wandered into my area and requested I perform X task that was outside the scope of my duties and responsibilities, I would refer them to whichever shop normally handles X task.  If they persist, I would refer them to my supervisor.  In the absence of my supervisor or XO (our CO is a reservist), I would ask them to wait until the request can be approved on the squadron level.

If they spin the situation as possibly resulting in a real-world mission failure, that would be pretty easy to verify with literally one phone call to the appropriate organization (flight ops, security forces, etc).  If the mission can be verified then it obviously takes priority over our routine operations.  However, in my shop we are fond of the saying "the lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine," and we've had senior NCOs and officers get pretty wound up over stupid things and told them to pound sand.  I, as an E6, have to be a little more careful about refusing service to anyone, but sometimes I feel comfortable refusing a request like (actual example) take your airmen and go police up trash by Wing HQ in advance of our VIP's arrival.  That's a hard stop.
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dogmush

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2018, 08:22:13 AM »
What if the sargeant's orders came from a higher-ranking officer such as a Colonel?  The Colonel at HQ outranks the Major in the field.

Generally speaking orders from the Officer in front of you override the orders of the Officer back in the rear.  It's assumed that the Officer on ground has the best, most current info.  Of course, that officer (the one on ground) will have to be able to justify his decision to diverge from the previous orders.

There are orders (General Orders, Standing Orders) that are designed and promulgated to stop that from happening.  An example of that would be CENTCOM General Order 1B, which is the infamous no booze, no porn in Iraq order.  Those types of orders tend to have in them whom is the lowest authority to change them.  In our example, CENTCOM 1B says the approval authority is the first General Officer in your chain of command.  So when my crew ended up in Bahrain (where booze is legal) on the Fourth of July, I had to ask the first GO in my chain if I could have beer with our BBQ.  (Memo, Risk assessment, blessing of Bn (Battalion) and BDE (Brigade) CDR's).

In a tactical situation, where we're operating on an Operations Order, I'll have my orders, and the CDR's intent (usually up several echelons).  Were I to be doing my thing, and all of a sudden some Navy O6 in a cruiser comes alongside my LCU and says the mission has changed and he needs me to go do X, then I go do X.  Modern warfare being what it is, I'd probably SATCOM my Bn while I went and did X, and if they really didn't like it, they can fight it out with the Navy.

In the Rat Patrol scenario, where a small unit is not in contact with higher, and they run across an officer, and that officer says some version of "Awesome, I need you guys to accomplish my mission, follow me!" Then they are functionally under that officer's command until they get back to the rest of the Army.  The SGT Should probably deliver a good brief to the new officer so that he/she can make informed decisions about mission critical tasks and priorities.

That's kind of the basics.  Lots of little things can pop up to change the paradigm, which is why Officers war game this stuff.

dogmush

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 08:25:22 AM »
  However, in my shop we are fond of the saying "the lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine,"

Side Note:  I have discovered as you go up in echelons, that's not entirely true, as much as I, too, like saying it.  Lack of planning on a CPT's (O3) part?  Not my emergency. Lack of planning by the Division staff? Definitely my emergency. 

"Sigh, I'll need more coffee for this."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 08:39:26 AM »
Has fragging fallen out of fashion?
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 08:54:48 AM »
There are orders (General Orders, Standing Orders) that are designed and promulgated to stop that from happening.  An example of that would be CENTCOM General Order 1B, which is the infamous no booze, no porn in Iraq order.  Those types of orders tend to have in them whom is the lowest authority to change them.  In our example, CENTCOM 1B says the approval authority is the first General Officer in your chain of command.  So when my crew ended up in Bahrain (where booze is legal) on the Fourth of July, I had to ask the first GO in my chain if I could have beer with our BBQ.  (Memo, Risk assessment, blessing of Bn (Battalion) and BDE (Brigade) CDR's).

So question.

High high up do you need to be to do something like that on an individual mission level, or some such?

IE the rat patrol scenario. Mission orders are given with something along the lines of "tell anyone giving you contradictory orders to pound sand unless they've got a star or two".

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That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

makattak

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 08:55:01 AM »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2018, 10:20:44 AM »
It seems to me that if their mission was to rescue an officer, the issue of who is in command after the rescue should have been addressed. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

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Re: Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2018, 10:26:12 AM »
So question.

High high up do you need to be to do something like that on an individual mission level, or some such?

IE the rat patrol scenario. Mission orders are given with something along the lines of "tell anyone giving you contradictory orders to pound sand unless they've got a star or two".

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

It'll be in the OPORD (Operations Order) or General Order.  So in my example, the exception authority was a 1 star, but the actual order comes from a Combatant Commander.  So to just say "*expletive deleted*ck that whole order" I'd have to run across someone that outranks the Combatant Commander (CENTCOM is a 4-star).

I suspect that the more secret squirrel guys have orders that say something like "You are on a super secret mission, if you find a Colonel that thinks he can boss you around, he can't, and he's not cleared to know why.  Have him call Gen Cooler-than you, JSOC, Ft. Bragg and continue mission", but I've never gotten one of those.

In the Rat Patrol, they were probably executing some WWII version of a basic Bn level OPORD that said, "go forth and harass", so it was unlikely to have a lot of "don't deviate from this mission unless Patton himself asks" language built into it.  Of course, the intricacies of US Army Command and Control and Operations Orders make for crap TV.  I also don't know what doctrine was in WWII.  Much of our doctrine currently is predicated on reasonable access to near real time secure commo.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:42:23 AM by dogmush »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2018, 10:45:12 AM »
It seems to me that if their mission was to rescue an officer, the issue of who is in command after the rescue should have been addressed.  

That wasn't their mission.

If anyone cares to watch it, here's the episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts8jxzAD7Q0
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 11:01:26 AM by Hawkmoon »
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K Frame

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 10:53:29 AM »
Wouldn't it just be easier to have Captain America swoop in and take charge?
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Scout26

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 11:59:40 AM »
Sorry, I had woken up at 2am and was APSing while half asleep.  Dogmush is correct.  A repatriated/escaped POW/Detainee has no position in the Chain of Command due to potential trauma/and other psychological reasons.   The mission then becomes to get them to the rear   (I thought I had typed that last night, but fell asleep before hitting "POST").

I had a similar situation one REFORGER.  We were directing the attack of 8ID into VII Corps at night.  At one intersection, 5/77 ARM came down the road they were supposed to leave on, and the company commander of the lead company wanted to depart on the road they were supposed to come down. 

I pointed out to both the Company Commander and Battalion Commander their errors and offered to help get the Battalion turned around and guided into their attack position.   They refused to listen and decided to go their way.

Come morning, 5 battalions of armor from 8ID were in position and ready to attack.  The 6th Battalion (5/77) was wandering the Corps rear, getting in everyone's way.

MG Calvin Waller (google him) was not happy and ready to rip my head off when I gave the brief on the passage of lines/movement to contact that was supposed to happen with all 6 battalion early that morning (5 did attack and it went very well, a 6th battalion would have been even better).

Any way ended up with that evening brief being put in front of all the Maneuver battalion commanders with one highly pissed-off MG Waller pointing at me (and the MP brassard on my arm) telling them "If he says to turn right, you *expletive deleted*ing turn right.  If he tells you to turn left, you turn left.  Whatever he tells you to do, you do.  LTC x (commander of 5-77ARM), come see me at the end of this brief.  (Pretty sure that he became "Charles Atlas" in MG Waller's OER Rating Profile.)   
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

HankB

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 12:48:39 PM »
My Dad - a WWII Air Commando - told me about a situation he encountered on some island. They were servicing aircraft, which were flying multiple missions each day. Re-arming, re-fueling, processing and reloading gun camera film, replacing bombs, repairing battle damage, etc. A Marine officer drives up in a jeep - captain, major, whatever - and ORDERS the busy Army Air Corps men to drop what they're doing and follow him.

They figured out he'd already used up a bunch of his Marines attacking caves, and now wanted to use up Air Corps personnel, and the hell with their part in the battle.

Guys didn't go, whereupon this Marine officer started cursing, called these combat veterans a bunch of cowards, pulled out his pistol and threatened to shoot them. HE soon had a dozen or more pistols, rifles, carbines, and SMGs pointed at him, as even on the flight line Air Commandos were armed. Some comments along the lines of "We got us a Jap infiltrator!" were made.

Marine officer left mouthing threats. Flight line personnel reported this to the CO who said he'd take care of it, and to "get back to work on those aircraft!"

Dad said if there was any clash of commanders it took place above his pay grade, as he never heard another word about it.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2018, 03:23:58 PM »
Sorry, I had woken up at 2am and was APSing while half asleep.  Dogmush is correct.  A repatriated/escaped POW/Detainee has no position in the Chain of Command due to potential trauma/and other psychological reasons.   The mission then becomes to get them to the rear   (I thought I had typed that last night, but fell asleep before hitting "POST").

I had a similar situation one REFORGER.  We were directing the attack of 8ID into VII Corps at night.  At one intersection, 5/77 ARM came down the road they were supposed to leave on, and the company commander of the lead company wanted to depart on the road they were supposed to come down.  

I pointed out to both the Company Commander and Battalion Commander their errors and offered to help get the Battalion turned around and guided into their attack position.   They refused to listen and decided to go their way.

Come morning, 5 battalions of armor from 8ID were in position and ready to attack.  The 6th Battalion (5/77) was wandering the Corps rear, getting in everyone's way.

MG Calvin Waller (google him) was not happy and ready to rip my head off when I gave the brief on the passage of lines/movement to contact that was supposed to happen with all 6 battalion early that morning (5 did attack and it went very well, a 6th battalion would have been even better).

Any way ended up with that evening brief being put in front of all the Maneuver battalion commanders with one highly pissed-off MG Waller pointing at me (and the MP brassard on my arm) telling them "If he says to turn right, you *expletive deleted*ing turn right.  If he tells you to turn left, you turn left.  Whatever he tells you to do, you do.  LTC x (commander of 5-77ARM), come see me at the end of this brief.  (Pretty sure that he became "Charles Atlas" in MG Waller's OER Rating Profile.)  

Ah, yes ... occifers. Probably just about every GI has at least one occifer story.

At one point during my sojourn in southeast Asia, the commanding general of the 4th Infantry Division decided he was tired of the division base camp being shelled almost every night by mortar fire. At the time I was in base camp. We arrived back at the hooch one afternoon as the mama-sans were loading into the trucks to be taken back into town (Pleiku). As usual, we said "See you tomorrow, Mama-san." To which they replied, "No see tomorrow. We no come, you no be here. You aw go out."

We didn't know WTF that was supposed to mean. Late in the afternoon (or early evening) we found out. There was to be a major sweep-and-clear mission first thing in the morning. Every warm body within ICBM range of Camp Enari was going to be loaded for bear, trucked out 5 km from the perimeter, form up a cordon, and sweep in toward the camp to clear out any attack positions. Naturally, this was all top secret, so we weren't told until the last minute -- but ALL the hooch maids knew about it, so you can guess how many mortar emplacements we found. But that's not the point of this story.

At the appointed hour, my platoon loaded into a deuce-and-a-half and we were trucked out to a hilltop and dropped. We stood around for awhile, waiting for the signal to start closing the circle. From our hilltop location, the camp was plainly visible. So along comes a captain from some unit other than ours (our platoon was being led by our SFC for the day), and he gives us the order to MOVE OUT -- pointing in the opposite direction from the base camp. Several of us tried to point out that the base camp was over thar, not where he wanted to send us. He was undeterred -- he had his map and his Boy Scout compass. So we started walking, in the wrong direction. A couple of minutes a helicopter flew over, swung around, and dropped into a hover. A voice (a rather annoyed voice) came over a loadspeaker: "Captain, where in 'ell do you think you're going?"

Momentarily two or three jeeps sped up, a bunch of company grade and field grade officers jumped out, and a heated discussion ensued, complete with maps spread out on the hoods of jeeps, compasses, the whole enchilada. Meanwhile, we're all just standing there, enjoying the show, and telling anyone who would listen (which was about nobody for the longest time) that, "See? That there's the base camp, right over thar." Finally somebody pulled his head out of his rectum and listened, the jeeps and helicopters all left, and we were allowed to begin our sweep in the proper direction.

Fragging definitely should have been more widespread than it was.
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dogmush

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2018, 04:17:23 PM »
Ah, yes ... occifers. Probably just about every GI has at least one occifer story.

.....Occifer story.......


Quote from: Amy Schumer
I had a similar situation one REFORGER.  We were directing the attack of 8ID into VII Corps at night.  At one intersection, 5/77 ARM came down the road they were supposed to leave on, and the company commander of the lead company wanted to depart on the road they were supposed to come down.  

I pointed out to both the Company Commander and Battalion Commander their errors and offered to help get the Battalion turned around and guided into their attack position.   They refused to listen and decided to go their way.


...Another Occifer story......
  

Yeah, No.  I don't put up with that anymore.

[fills coffee mug and chuckles in Warrant Officer]

Scout26

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2018, 06:10:37 PM »
<<<<<--- nods in mustang officer....
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

French G.

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2018, 06:34:59 PM »
Thankfully, peacetime operations are easier to determine.  If some random O4 (or anybody) wandered into my area and requested I perform X task that was outside the scope of my duties and responsibilities, I would refer them to whichever shop normally handles X task.  If they persist, I would refer them to my supervisor.  In the absence of my supervisor or XO (our CO is a reservist), I would ask them to wait until the request can be approved on the squadron level.

If they spin the situation as possibly resulting in a real-world mission failure, that would be pretty easy to verify with literally one phone call to the appropriate organization (flight ops, security forces, etc).  If the mission can be verified then it obviously takes priority over our routine operations.  However, in my shop we are fond of the saying "the lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine," and we've had senior NCOs and officers get pretty wound up over stupid things and told them to pound sand.  I, as an E6, have to be a little more careful about refusing service to anyone, but sometimes I feel comfortable refusing a request like (actual example) take your airmen and go police up trash by Wing HQ in advance of our VIP's arrival.  That's a hard stop.

E-5 me once kicked an O-5 and his E-9 attack dog out of my shop. It was epic and I did it just so correctly that they were steamed but good but I was covered. "When is my part that my people screwed up going to be ready to go bomb people?" Well sir, it will be done a lot sooner if you and yours stop interrupting our work, please refer any further questions to our production boss. (Other end of big boat) I got phone call on that. And it did get done quickly. Other tricks, I was fond of putting my tools away and just standing there until they left. Once had an E-8 stand in the corner of my shop for the better part of two days and watch me work. He was tame, having had to explain to CAG why half the E-2Cs in a war zone were broke because his QA couldn't read had left him with little spare ass.

I later worked for the E-9, the angry little man syndrome Italian E-9, at another command. He remembered me. :D
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 11:31:55 PM »
<<<<<--- nods in mustang officer....

The two best company officers I served under were the CO and XO of the guided missile artillery unit they stuck me in for awhile before I went to Vietnam. Having trained me as a combat engineer, to blow things up, the Army then realized that I was color blind, and some genius decided they didn't want a guy who couldn't see colors correctly hooking colored wires to things that go BOOM! Of course, IIRC all the wires were black, and we still used the old-fashioned detonators that basically just closed a switch, so it's not like you could hook the wires up backwards and cause a premature detonation. Nonetheless, I arrived at HQ-4-1 with my 12B10 MOS, and they didn't now what to do with me since a Nike-Hercules battalion doesn't have any slots for 12B10s.

So they made me the company clerk for headquarters company. Yep -- I was Radar O'Reilly for awhile. The CO was 1st LT James E. Walters. He was a Mustang, and a wonderful officer to serve under. Our XO was CW3 Dale Showalter, who was also a fine officer and a pleasure to serve under.

Then I got to Vietnam, where both the company CO and the XO royally deserved to be fragged. The CO was bad, the XO was worse. I still remember his name, and he'd better hope I never meet him in a dark alley.
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Scout26

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Re: Chain of Command question
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2018, 05:35:20 AM »
Funny that.  Fourth of the Worst was a Hawk Battalion in Hoppstädten-Weiersbach and pretty much always on alert.  So once their soldiers would get time off, they would become what we referred to a "The Blotter Stuffers")  Them along with all the other ADA units that guarded the NATO Bunker at Börfink.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
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Sweet memories to drive us on,
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