Birdshot in a home defense shotgun

[French G.]

As you implied your last point, I have yet to see a cartridge capable of providing worthwhile and reliable performance against an attacker that can also be stopped or made substantially less dangerous by a typical interior wall.  You can pretty much choose one or the other.

I have previously condsidered 40gr .223 hp for that. It is going to explode anything it hits.

[cordex]

I have previously condsidered 40gr .223 hp for that. It is going to explode anything it hits.

40gr .223 might satisfy  the “made substantially less dangerous” but I’m seriously doubtful on the “worthwhile and reliable performance against an attacker”.

[HeroHog]

Bird shot is only acceptable in cut shells.

https://youtu.be/AT5nIEazK_4

[MechAg94]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc
Paul Harrell did a video on bird shot for home defense.  He sets up a version of the meat target in this one.  He has a number of videos on shotguns and shot shells for defense.  The impression I got was that heavier bird shot such as dove loads can be pretty effective, but they will also penetrate at least a couple layers of dry wall pretty good.  Practice ammo with smaller shot was not as effective.  He shot a version of his meat target with #6 shot and that looked pretty good.  

For me, I think I would go with buck shot, but probably the smaller buck shot pellets rather than 000.  Right now I have an AK with a 40 round mag of Federal Fusion soft point ammo.  I don't own a self defense shotgun.

I have had people tell me that bird shot acts like a slug at very short range.  I never believed that otherwise bean bag rounds would go right through someone.  

[Ben]

The impression I got was that heavier bird shot such as dove loads  

The dove must be ginormous down your way.  

[Brad Johnson]

I have had people tell me that bird shot acts like a slug at very short range.  I never believed that otherwise bean bag rounds would go right through someone.  

Bean bag rounds are traveling at roughly 250 FPS. High brass or game load shot shells exit the barrel at 1200+ FPS. Big difference.

Brad

[MechAg94]

Bean bag rounds are traveling at roughly 250 FPS. High brass or game load shot shells exit the barrel at 1200+ FPS. Big difference.

Brad

True, but it still doesn't act like a slug.    

Honestly, I am not sure what the benefit would be for slugs for home defense over buck shot.  The only thing I can think of is penetrating a barrier of some kind like armor or a wall.  It would be interesting to see a wall penetration test for slugs after it went through a gel block. 

[Grebnaws]

While still using a shotgun for HD I settled on 12ga Fiocchi LE Reduced Recoil Tactical Buckshot. Shotguns are not something I use very often and I was only interested in finding what worked best without punishing myself needlessly. I found this load to have low recoil, nearly identical to your standard 2 3/4 birdshot game load, and pattern very tight out of a cylinder bore 18" barrel. At ~12 yards it would keep all pellets on a paper plate from my gun. It made the "Military Grade" 00 buckshot look like a bad joke. Although my plans for us to rally around the shotgun as a home defense weapon of choice did not materialize I would still consider this a great option because of the recoil characteristics. No one laughs at 9 pellets of 00 buck and it's no more expensive than a premium pistol caliber self defense round.

[zxcvbob]

The responses here seem to assume a human target. Perhaps the OP is concerned about a feathered fiend. An avian assailant. A bloodthirsty bird.

The Penguin!



ETA: seriously, I'm impressed with your alliteration.  Did you steal it from the old (Adam West) Batman series, or make it up yourself?  It's good either way.

[Perd Hapley]

I still hold that the shotgun can be the superior home defense option, in certain circumstances. For example, if you live in a quiet, lake-side community, and some cool blond from the big city shows up - load up with bird-shot, and keep your weapon handy.

[dogmush]

Military and LEO don’t use birdshot.  Gotta be a reason.  😉

Military and LEO don't really use Shotguns anymore and there is a reason.  Jus' Sayn'

[HeroHog]

Ladies and Germans, I give you... The Frangible JB Weld slug!

https://youtu.be/zk73wFTL4Ug

[Brad Johnson]

Ran across this during lunch. Decent comparison of 00 buck, #4, and #7 at what I would consider a typical home defense distance. Boomstick looks to probably be using a cylinder bore 18.5" barrel. Neither scientific nor controlled, but enough to show relative terminal effects, at least in terms of impact and pattern.

https://youtu.be/uERIjpiBvog?t=278

Essential takeaway is that at close range, all pack a serious punch. Heavier shot will have more penetrating power, obviously, but the birdshot is nothing to sneer at.

Brad

[Jamisjockey]

Ran across this during lunch. Decent comparison of 00 buck, #4, and #7 at what I would consider a typical home defense distance. Boomstick looks to probably be using a cylinder bore 18.5" barrel. Neither scientific nor controlled, but enough to show relative terminal effects, at least in terms of impact and pattern.

https://youtu.be/uERIjpiBvog?t=278

Essential takeaway is that at close range, all pack a serious punch. Heavier shot will have more penetrating power, obviously, but the birdshot is nothing to sneer at.

Brad

That video actually punctuates what I was about to mention.
From a shotgun setup properly, at home defense ranges, buckshot makes such a tight pattern that it dispels all the stupid myths about using buckshot, shotguns, and birdshot for HD.
Part of what makes buck so effective is that it's 9 .38 cal pellets at 1200fps impacting an area smaller than the size of your fist under 10 yards.
Birdshot...how much does a number 8 pellet weigh?  They're smaller than the bb's from a bb gun for crying out loud.
Would it suck? Sure.  But it's designed for hunting birds not people.  Right tool, right job. 

Buy an actual HD shotgun, or a barrel for your shotgun for HD.  They're cheap.
Practice.
Load it with the appropriate ammo.

Birdshot for HD as an idea should go the way of the tactical wheelbarrow, debarked chihuahuas, and serpa holsters.

[Jim147]

Having been hit in the side with a heavy hunting coat on with just a few pellets penetration sucks at range. Having seen a guy hit point blank in the face bird shot will f someone's day.

Jim

[p12]

My shotgun is loaded with 0000 buck and slugs. Alternating. Just me and the wife. If something goes down I won’t be worried about her. She will be behind me.


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[grislyatoms]

Nonsense. Bird shot at "contact" distance through a full choke shotgun will hit as one projectile. I've blown several 2x4's in half with one shell. I've said this for *years*, look at my history. Now, what do I keep in my shotgun? 2 3/4" 00 Buck. I'm in my own home now, so things/circumstances have changed. I'm no longer in an apartment and not terribly worried about over-penetration.

[Jamisjockey]

If only bad guys would allow me to shoot them at contact distance. 

[Mannlicher]

Military and LEO don't really use Shotguns anymore and there is a reason.  Jus' Sayn'

actually they do.  And they don’t use birdshot.   But feel free to use what ever your little heart desires.  😏

[dogmush]

actually they do.  And they don’t use birdshot.   But feel free to use what ever your little heart desires.  😏

I think you'll find that the non-breeching use of shotguns in the military is pretty limited, and getting rarer.  We use 00 Buck when issued shotguns.

LEO seems to be following suit and moving away from shotguns for lethal long arm purposes.


My point is not that a shotgun won't work for HD, it demonstrably will.  But if you're going to look at .mil/LEO shotgun ammo as an indicator of what you should use, it's worth noting that they don't really use shotguns for that purpose at all anymore.

[Jamisjockey]

Yeah. Because police are switching to the AR15/M4 platform and issuing it wholesale or loosening standards to carry it.  Because they're prepping for active shooting response.
But if we're talking HD, measure all the angles in your house.  Let's say the average 4 member family home is 2500sqft and two stories.
The longest distance in a house like that will be about 15yards.
The average spread of buckshot at that distance will be 5-10 inches give or take.
This is where the shotgun shines.  When fed the right ammo.
How about this little shooting test.

http://www.guns.com/review/birdshot-vs-buckshot-why-birdshot-is-never-better-for-home-defense/

His conclusion is that because of the quickly opening pattern of birdshot it's more dangerous for home defense.  You're more likely to get pellets off target.

My conclusion?  Birdshot is for birds and serpa holster wearing tools who bloviate on internet forums about overpenetration and contact distance wound patterns.

[MechAg94]

I think the biggest benefit of the AR is that the rifle is light and easy to shoot for the performance expected of typical police use.  It is easy to teach a novice to shoot with reasonable accuracy and speed from short range out to 50 yards or so.  Not to say that shotguns are hard to use, I just think the AR is easier.  The low recoil and ergonomics allow most people to comfortably put rounds on target pretty fast and keep repeating that shot even with moving targets.

[Perd Hapley]

I think the biggest benefit of the AR is that the rifle is light and easy to shoot for the performance expected of typical police use.  It is easy to teach a novice to shoot with reasonable accuracy and speed from short range out to 50 yards or so.  Not to say that shotguns are hard to use, I just think the AR is easier.  The low recoil and ergonomics allow most people to comfortably put rounds on target pretty fast and keep repeating that shot even with moving targets.

You mean Joe Biden doesn't know what he's talking about? Yeah, right. 

[MechAg94]

You mean Joe Biden doesn't know what he's talking about? Yeah, right. 

You just want him to stand behind you again.....   

[HeroHog]

Mossberg® 500 Special Purpose 20-Ga. Tactical Pump-Action Shotgun FTW