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Author Topic: God-Emperor Trump lays the smack-down on NATO  (Read 1591 times)
freakazoid
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2018, 05:58:42 PM »

Trump Jr.
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM »

Wasn't it revealed that he posts on some bow and arrow forum or something?

John Kerry?

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Amy Schumer
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2018, 10:50:41 PM »

The thing is the Cold War ended 30 years ago.  Yet we still maintain (and pay for) a Cold War posture in Europe.  Our bases are in the worst strategic places in Europe.  In Southern Germany.  We cannot ship armoured vehicles south (they won't fit through rail tunnels and driving from Germany to get to Mediterranean ports is just stupid.   We have to railhead vehicles to Northern European ports and then take the long way around Spain and Portugal to get to the Africa or the Mid-East.   And if we are protecting Europe from Russia, then the Russians will have a running start through the Baltic States and Poland before US forces can engage them.

Poland has offered to build the infrastructure for US bases in Poland.  We should take them up on their offer, if our intent is to protect Europe from Russia.  However, institutional inertia keeps us tied to Baumholder, Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels.  

And do we really need to have ~30,000 troops in NATO?  We have eight Brigades* and a metric buttload of Headquarter type units.  There needs to a be a complete re-think of NATO, because like Trump said, if Germany (and most of the rest of Europe, sans Poland) buys their Natural Gas from Russia, then Russia owns them, as they demonstrated back when Russia was getting frisky in Ukraine and Crimea a few winters back.   Russia throttled back Natural Gas deliveries to Germany and as German households got colder, German objections to Russia's moves grew quieter.




*- Of the 8 "Brigades", only two are real "trigger pullers".  A (Stryker) Cavalry Brigade and an Airborne Infantry Brigade (in Italy) .  The others are Air Defense, Aviation, an MP Brigade (A battalion of MPs and a battalion of Combat Engineers), a Signal Brigade, an Intelligence Brigade, and a Combat Sustainment Brigade.    Even even those are "light" in that they are smaller compared to a similar brigade in Cold War.   For example, in the Cold War the 2nd Cav had 3 Squadrons of 5 Troops each.  The new one has 3 Squadrons of 3 (smaller) Troops each, plus no Aviation Squadron.  And it had M1s and Bradleys.  Now it has Strykers.  So it can't go into a stand-up, toe-to-toe fight with any armoured unit. In fact, there was a great deal of acrimony back in 2014-5ish when the 2nd Cav got their asses handed to them by every Balkan NATO ally that was using old Soviet era tanks during a huge NATO exercise at Hohenfels.   "Embarrassing" was the word I heard used repeatedly to describe what happened, over and over, by each Country we went up against.  We are pretty much back to the "hollow Army" of the 1970's.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 11:17:32 PM by Amy Schumer » Report to moderator   Logged

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makattak
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2018, 04:42:33 AM »

The thing is the Cold War ended 30 years ago.  Yet we still maintain (and pay for) a Cold War posture in Europe.  Our bases are in the worst strategic places in Europe.  In Southern Germany.  We cannot ship armoured vehicles south (they won't fit through rail tunnels and driving from Germany to get to Mediterranean ports is just stupid.   We have to railhead vehicles to Northern European ports and then take the long way around Spain and Portugal to get to the Africa or the Mid-East.   And if we are protecting Europe from Russia, then the Russians will have a running start through the Baltic States and Poland before US forces can engage them.

Poland has offered to build the infrastructure for US bases in Poland.  We should take them up on their offer, if our intent is to protect Europe from Russia.  However, institutional inertia keeps us tied to Baumholder, Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels.  

And do we really need to have ~30,000 troops in NATO?  We have eight Brigades* and a metric buttload of Headquarter type units.  There needs to a be a complete re-think of NATO, because like Trump said, if Germany (and most of the rest of Europe, sans Poland) buys their Natural Gas from Russia, then Russia owns them, as they demonstrated back when Russia was getting frisky in Ukraine and Crimea a few winters back.   Russia throttled back Natural Gas deliveries to Germany and as German households got colder, German objections to Russia's moves grew quieter.




*- Of the 8 "Brigades", only two are real "trigger pullers".  A (Stryker) Cavalry Brigade and an Airborne Infantry Brigade (in Italy) .  The others are Air Defense, Aviation, an MP Brigade (A battalion of MPs and a battalion of Combat Engineers), a Signal Brigade, an Intelligence Brigade, and a Combat Sustainment Brigade.    Even even those are "light" in that they are smaller compared to a similar brigade in Cold War.   For example, in the Cold War the 2nd Cav had 3 Squadrons of 5 Troops each.  The new one has 3 Squadrons of 3 (smaller) Troops each, plus no Aviation Squadron.  And it had M1s and Bradleys.  Now it has Strykers.  So it can't go into a stand-up, toe-to-toe fight with any armoured unit. In fact, there was a great deal of acrimony back in 2014-5ish when the 2nd Cav got their asses handed to them by every Balkan NATO ally that was using old Soviet era tanks during a huge NATO exercise at Hohenfels.   "Embarrassing" was the word I heard used repeatedly to describe what happened, over and over, by each Country we went up against.  We are pretty much back to the "hollow Army" of the 1970's.

Honestly, I think we ought to ally with Eastern Europe. They are the ones who have suffered under communism. They appear to be willing allies compared to Western Europe.

Pull all forces out of Western Europe and put (some of) them in Eastern Europe. Tell Vlad they have suffered enough, but Western Europe is all his, if he can take it. Yes, he'd have to hop around Poland for that to happen, but I'm sure we can look the other way while ships sail across the Baltic.

(Yes, this is mostly tongue in cheek. I know that if we support Eastern Europe, Western Europe is protected. Mostly tongue in cheek.)
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2018, 04:42:59 AM »

If they're not going to spend that money on the military, you'd think these NATO countries could at least provide a full breakfast for John Kelly. The poor guy was hungry!

“[Kelly] was displeased because he was expecting a full breakfast and there were only pastries and cheese,” Huckabee Sanders said.
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makattak
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2018, 04:44:27 AM »

If they're not going to spend that money on the military, you'd think these NATO countries could at least provide a full breakfast for John Kelly. The poor guy was hungry!
Quote
“[Kelly] was displeased because he was expecting a full breakfast and there were only pastries and cheese,” Huckabee Sanders said.

THAT was Grade A trolling. Got a big laugh out of me this morning when I read it. 
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2018, 06:41:11 PM »

Honestly, I think we ought to ally with Eastern Europe. They are the ones who have suffered under communism. They appear to be willing allies compared to Western Europe.

Pull all forces out of Western Europe and put (some of) them in Eastern Europe. Tell Vlad they have suffered enough, but Western Europe is all his, if he can take it. Yes, he'd have to hop around Poland for that to happen, but I'm sure we can look the other way while ships sail across the Baltic.

(Yes, this is mostly tongue in cheek. I know that if we support Eastern Europe, Western Europe is protected. Mostly tongue in cheek.)

We are allied with all of Eastern Europe (bar Belarus and Ukraine) via NATO, hence that is why the Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, were at Hohenfels for Exercise Saber Junction in 2014, using old T62, and T72 (and IIRC someone brought some upgraded T55's) kicking the living *expletive deleted*it out of 2CR.  But yes, we need to move troops east.  However, when the wall fell, we kinda promised that we wouldn't station troops in the former Warsaw Pact nations, but I think that agreement went out the window after Ukraine and Crimea.   
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Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
MillCreek
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2018, 07:42:38 PM »

Wait, wait, wait here, Amy: does the US no longer have any Main Battle Tanks in Europe?  This is shocking to me. 
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2018, 09:18:30 PM »

Wait, wait, wait here, Amy: does the US no longer have any Main Battle Tanks in Europe?  This is shocking to me. 

US Army Europe does not have Abrams. 2nd Cav Regiment (which is USAREUR's main combatant force) is a Stryker Regiment.  See this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Europe#Subordinate_units

Supreme Allied Commander Europe, which is functionally NATO in Europe, has main battle tanks available in his forces, but they are not US units.
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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2018, 12:29:22 AM »

I thought that what we have there is mainly aimed at having the groundwork layed for the real troops getting there. I don't know where we preposition armor for Europe, or if we do. A whole lot sitting in Diego Garcia.
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2018, 08:40:13 PM »

The last Abrams (and Bradleys) all left Europe in 2013.  However, Russia got frisky in Ukraine and Crimea, so we shipped back 29 Abrams and 33 Bradleys (a combined arms battalion's worth) to be pre-postioned at Grafenwoehr, so the units rotating over from the states have something to practice with.

When I was in Europe, there were 25 Armor battalions, not including any of the Armored Cavalry Regiments.


https://www.stripes.com/news/american-tanks-return-to-europe-after-brief-leave-1.264910




*- European Activity Set sounds like something a child would play with.
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Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
dogmush
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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2018, 08:55:40 PM »

The last Abrams (and Bradleys) all left Europe in 2013.  However, Russia got frisky in Ukraine and Crimea, so we shipped back 29 Abrams and 33 Bradleys (a combined arms battalion's worth) to be pre-postioned at Grafenwoehr, so the units rotating over from the states have something to practice with.

When I was in Europe, there were 25 Armor battalions, not including any of the Armored Cavalry Regiments.


And I'm sure Maintenance is all over those vehicles, and they're 100% Full Mission Capable.  No "circle X's" here.....

[/sarcasm]
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Amy Schumer
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2018, 09:12:23 PM »

And I'm sure Maintenance is all over those vehicles, and they're 100% Full Mission Capable.  No "circle X's" here.....

[/sarcasm]


Maintenance (above PMCS) is done by civilians at Graf.  From what I understand, everything operator level has to be functional , unless otherwise noted, and they are repaired/inspected between rotations.  Think turning them into CIF.
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Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2018, 10:59:27 PM »

"CIF" Huh?
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« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2018, 06:36:34 AM »

I had thought Trump Jr. was rumored to be a member of ar15.com
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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2018, 02:07:01 PM »

"CIF" Huh?

Crystallographic information format.  Actually had to track down a viewer for those a few years back.  Why anyone would need that level of detail on a vehicle other than some very deep forensic investigation, I don't know.
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« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2018, 04:24:43 PM »

KD5NRH, not sure if you are joking or not.  CIF is "Central Issue Facility."  Individual gear such as ruck sack, cold weather gear, etc is issued to Soldiers from CIF when they arrive at a post.  When you leave the gear is turned back in to CIF, inspected for serviceability, and reissued to other Soldiers.  I'm not sure this arrangement is precisely analogous.  But it's close enough and the CIF reference is one most Army veterans would immediately recognize.  (I did.)
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« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2018, 08:03:32 PM »

Does Russia even have the amount of spare parts necessary to fight the amount of time it would take to subdue the eastern European states let alone break through into central and western Europe?

They're likely going to have be fighting Finland at the same time and who wants that? That's going to draw a lot of resources north just to deal with the Finns. Who I assume, even decades on, still want payback and will use Russian bellicosity as an excuse to lay on the hurt.

But by all means if the Poles want us there, why not? Maybe some combined forces exercises with the little Baltic states would be called for as well.
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« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2018, 08:26:18 PM »

But it's close enough and the CIF reference is one most Army veterans would immediately recognize.  (I did.)

I am an Army veteran, and I didn't recognize the reference. Further evidence to support the concept that any acronym should be spelled out in full the first time it's introduced into any conversation, so that everyone knows what it means.
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« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2018, 10:11:59 PM »

I am an Army veteran, and I didn't recognize the reference.

I didn't either, FWIW.
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« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2018, 11:53:57 AM »

Army veterans since 2005, maybe?  Smiley  Regardless, I too am a believer in spelling out all but the most common acronyms on first use.  For situations just like this one.
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« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2018, 12:04:15 PM »

Cipherin' Is Fundamental

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« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2018, 01:03:35 PM »

KD5NRH, not sure if you are joking or not.  CIF is "Central Issue Facility."  Individual gear such as ruck sack, cold weather gear, etc is issued to Soldiers from CIF when they arrive at a post.  When you leave the gear is turned back in to CIF, inspected for serviceability, and reissued to other Soldiers.  I'm not sure this arrangement is precisely analogous.  But it's close enough and the CIF reference is one most Army veterans would immediately recognize.  (I did.)

What he said.

And CIF *expletive deleted*ing sucks.
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« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2018, 03:40:22 PM »

KD5NRH, not sure if you are joking or not.

I'm just giving .mil some new ideas of how to waste taxpayer money, since they've run short of exceptionally functional plane designs to replace.
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Amy Schumer
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« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2018, 04:20:21 PM »

Sorry, "Central Issue Facility", so the company supply room doesn't have to carry everything.  However, the other reason I referenced CIF is that usually they expect you to return everything in "Never Issued" condition, no matter how crappy it was when issued to you.  Clearing CIF at the end of your tour generally entailed going to Clothing Sales and buying new stuff to replace the stuff they rejected.

When I was in Baumholder there were numerous complaints about CIF about them rejecting everything. (apparently they could see mud and dirt at the microscopic level)  So the Deputy Community Commander (DCC, O-6 Full Bird Colonel) had the Military Community (MILCOM) Commander (Captain O-3) make up fake orders and sent a solider to draw from CIF.  All that gear then sat in the DCC's office for 4 months.  Never went to field, never even unpacked from the dufflebags they were loaded into at CIF.  MILCOM commander gave a different solider clearing papers and he went to CIF to turn-in the gear.  About half of the stuff was rejected.

I heard the asschewing the DCC gave to CIF was gloriously epic.  After that, unless your gear was really unserviceable (ripped, torn, trashed and the like), then CIF accepted it. 
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Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
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