Author Topic: Woman dies, PayPal sends letter, to her, declaring her in breach of contract.  (Read 2225 times)

just Warren

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Don't try to stiff us!

I remember the early days of PayPal when their customer service was absolutely terrible in all facets of their operation. Having not heard about them crank-stepping lately I assumed they had gotten better.

Then along comes this.

Is the norm for PayPal still terribleness or is this an aberration from a new norm of competence?

I don't know, but I'll mock them anyway.

Consider yourself mocked, PayPal!   
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K Frame

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Believe it or not, this kind of thing is actually pretty common.
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MechAg94

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Is this just a messed up way of making a claim on the estate?
β€œIt is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

K Frame

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No, it's generally what happens when people aren't paying attention at huge company corp.

When my Mom died I notified a number of place, including a couple of very large companies. Most handled it properly, but one was weird...

"Dear Mrs. Irwin:

We are very sorry to hear of your recent death, blah blah blah..."

My guess is that the person with whom I was talking ticked something wrong in her computer entering the notification and it caused this peculiar letter to be generated.
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Hawkmoon

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Quote
Not only that, it continued, β€œ[t]his breach is not capable of remedy.”

Do I hear a "No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock" on this statement?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

never_retreat

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Common scam now is to try and get money from the estate. Credit card companies are not eligible to get money from the estate of the dead person. But they try and find a sucker family member that pays.
I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
Just noticed that a mod changed my signature. How long ago was that?
A few months-mods

Cliffh

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Had one try that when Mom died.  Told him to piss off, haven't heard from them again.

K Frame

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Uh... wrong.

Credit card debt is a debt of the decedent. It all depends on state laws and the terms of the credit card agreement, but a blanket statement that the debt dies with the person is wrong.

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« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 07:22:28 AM by Mike Irwin »
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never_retreat

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Uh... wrong.

Credit card debt is a debt of the decedent. It all depends on state laws and the terms of the credit card agreement, but a blanket statement that the debt does with the person is wrong.

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Oh maybe it's something here. I've seen multiple news articles about family being prayed on. I know loans and houses are still due though. 
I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
Just noticed that a mod changed my signature. How long ago was that?
A few months-mods

zxcvbob

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Common scam now is to try and get money from the estate. Credit card companies are not eligible to get money from the estate of the dead person. But they try and find a sucker family member that pays.

Wife has big credit card debts she thinks I don't know about. (And I don't know the balances)  That's why I have a $40000 life insurance policy on her.  I'm not sure if she dies first if I owe anything or not.  I'm assuming I just write "Deceased" on a bill and send it back.  I know I never cosigned the loans, and they never checked with me about her creditworthiness.  The insurance is a backup plan.
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Scout26

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Wife has big credit card debts she thinks I don't know about. (And I don't know the balances)  That's why I have a $40000 life insurance policy on her.  I'm not sure if she dies first if I owe anything or not.  I'm assuming I just write "Deceased" on a bill and send it back.  I know I never cosigned the loans, and they never checked with me about her creditworthiness.  The insurance is a backup plan.

Check your state's laws.  More than likely your are on the hook for her debts since you are her husband, whether she joins the Choir Invisible or not.  You may have an out IF you did not sign the application for the card, or you could be on the hook if she put your name on the account, or if you reside in a Community Property State.

I would highly suggest discussing the debts with your wife.   Of that $40k in Life Insurance, figure $10k just for final expenses...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 12:02:20 AM by Amy Schumer »
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sumpnz

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When you die what you own must stand against what you owe.  If the estate is bankrupt, secured creditors get their money first (e.g. mortgage holder, lien holders on car titles, etc.,). Unsecured creditors get a proportional amount of the remaining cash and proceeded from sale of assets.  If you really want to keep that house/car/valuable artwork/etc from Grandma you must buy it from the estate, and it better be for fair market value.

Once all assets from the estate are gone any creditors trying to get money from any heir are out of luck (unless said heir is dumb to pay).  Send them a copy of the death certificate, a statement from the executor that the estate is bankrupt, and to FOADIAF.

BUT, if the estate is solvent all of its debts must be paid in full (unless there was something like a "credit life insurance" plan in place).  Once all debts are paid then the remaining amount can be divided among the various heirs.

zxcvbob

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Check your state's laws.  More than likely your are on the hook for her debts since you are her husband, whether she joins the Choir Invisible or not.  You may have an out IF you did not sign the application for the card, or you could be on the hook if she put your name on the account, or if you reside in a Community Property State.

I would highly suggest discussing the debts with your wife.   Of that $40k in Life Insurance, figure $10k just for final expenses...

The house is community property (even tho' I paid for all of it; I'm okay with that)  AFAIK, Minnesota is not a community property state.  *All* of our other assets are in my name except for her retirement accounts (which I funded.)

I'm not interested in discussing something that will just end in a fight and nothing will change.  Makes more sense to just put it off indefinitely.  What I would like to do is loan her the money (at 3% interest) to pay them off and cut up the cards.  That would be a great deal for her; she's paying about 30%.  And not a bad deal for me cuz I'm getting less that 2% at the bank.  But it won't work; she will run the balances back up again *and* probably wouldn't pay me back anyway.  Better from my perspective to leave them maxed out because that puts a limit on her spending.  $40k ought to make a nice dent in them if I get stuck, but I'm not sure that I will.

A Viking funeral costs $10k?  ;)  Used canoe or wooden Jon boat, kerosene, burn permit...  I'm kidding, of course. (or am I?)
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K Frame

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Oh maybe it's something here. I've seen multiple news articles about family being prayed on. I know loans and houses are still due though. 

As always, there are multiple nuances.

Good discussion here: https://www.bankrate.com/finance/debt/death-inherits-credit-card-debt.aspx

In short...

If the card was in the dead persons name only, the debt is solely theirs, and the company has to try to collect from the estate's proceeds. That's what I'm facing with my Mom's estate.

If the card was a joint card, the surviving person on the joint account is generally liable for the debt.

If there's an authorized user on the account, then it becomes kind of hazy. But if the authorized user uses the card after the death of the primary card holder, that becomes a criminal fraud issue.

Card companies (or bill collectors who have bought the discharged debt) can try all they want to come after family members to get them to pay off the outstanding loan. That's on the family members to know their rights under the Fair Debt Collection Act, or whatever it's called.

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K Frame

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Wife has big credit card debts she thinks I don't know about. (And I don't know the balances)  That's why I have a $40000 life insurance policy on her.  I'm not sure if she dies first if I owe anything or not.  I'm assuming I just write "Deceased" on a bill and send it back.  I know I never cosigned the loans, and they never checked with me about her creditworthiness.  The insurance is a backup plan.

If you aren't the joint signer on the account or owner of the card, the debt is your wife's alone and becomes a liability to her estate. That MAY be different in a community property state.

That said, you need to speak with the Mrs regarding this issue, because it is a HUGE issue and can really cause you big problems.


Edit in -- OK, I see community property has been discussed. You still need to get a handle on this.

When I worked at Navy Federal Credit Union back in the 1990s it was not uncommon at all to see cases where the wife would secretly run up tons of debt and it would come back to haunt them both.

The one that really sticks in my mind was a bankruptcy debt discharge where the wife of a mid-level officer had run up nearly half a million in credit card debt before it all came crashing down. She had been forging her husband's name on credit card applications.

Marriage over, it cost him his career (he retired early because he lost his security clearance because of the money issues), and it cost him his financial security.
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RoadKingLarry

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Oh maybe it's something here. I've seen multiple news articles about family being prayed on. I know loans and houses are still due though. 

The estate and any cosigner is responsible for pretty much all debts of the deceased.
With no cosigners, if the liquidation/disposition of the estate doesn't satisfy the debt no one else is legally on the hook for the debt.
If my dad dies with outstanding debts the creditors can't come to me to be responsible for anything his estate doesn't cover. I've seen debt collectors go after relatives and try to badger them into paying. There are some seriously shady debt collectors out there.
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Firethorn

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Do I hear a "No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock" on this statement?

I get the feeling that that phrase is actually legal verbiage that they have to say. 

Brad Johnson

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SWMBO ran into a similar oddity when dealing with the estate of her late husband. She'd sent all the relevant information to Life Insurance Inc. to claim the small policy her husband had with them. Included were the probate docs recognizing her as the executrix, death certificate, letter of testamentary, and the required corporate forms.

She received a letter back saying (summarized), "Dear SWMBO, Executrix, our records do not reflect you are the legally recognized Executrix for this estate. As Executrix, please remit the required documents for recognition of you as Executrix."

She and I both had to re-read it a couple of times to make sure we were seeing what we thought we were seeing. Even the account rep she called on the phone did a "Wait... what?" when reviewing the letter. The rep got it sorted out in just a few minutes, thankfully. SWMBO got a call a few days later from some Much Higher Up in the company apologizing profusely for the confusion and thanking her for being so nice and patient about the whole thing. Apparently it was a combination of data entry drone error and computer coding strangeness that keyed the letter to generate in such an odd way.

Brad
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RoadKingLarry

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To e're is human, to really *expletive deleted*ck things up takes a computer.
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HankB

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Divorced friend of mine was sued annually by his ex who wanted more alimony. She lost every time, but kept trying, somehow believing every time he got a raise or promotion AFTER their divorce was final, she still had a claim on it. She was just gearing up for another try - and kicked the bucket.

Buddy soon got a phone call from HER lawyer saying that HE owned him for HER legal fees to support the lawsuit SHE was preparing to file against HIM.

Told the lawyer to pound sand and that all further contacts were to be through his own attorney.

Never heard another word from him.

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Scout26

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Again, the law treats other relatives and relations different from the spouse in the event of death (or divorce).  Prior to my divorce, my ex opened up three credit card accounts, without my knowledge and without even putting me on the application.  Yet, during the divorce I was held liable for 1/2 of the debts because we are in a community property state, where the law treats a married couple as one person.

While Mike, as son, (nor any other family members are) is NOT responsible for any of his mother's debts.  Depending on the state, had it been his wife he could have possibly still been on the hook.  (If it is a community property state).

Which is generally why in the event of the death of a spouse, the estate flows directly to the surviving spouse without having to go through probate.  


Last piece(s) of advice.

1)  Prepare wills or living trusts, so that your final wishes are in writing as to the disposal of your assets.
2)  Pre-pay your funeral.  I know people will argue against it.  But I find great comfort in know that some shyster funeral director won't be trying "up-sell" my son on caskets and all the other crap that funeral industry pushes on the grieving ("He would have wanted the gold-plate burial vault..." :mad:) surviving family members.  I saw it when my step-father-in-passed.  My mother-in-law bought everything the funeral director recommended.  Most of which was needless and a waste of money that she could have used (although knowing her spending habits, throwing it in a hole in the ground did about as much good.)

And I saw the opposite when my father passed, he had everything pre-paid, so there was very little for us to other than to tell the funeral home to pull his file and do what was in there.   And we probably saved several thousand dollars over what it actually cost.


« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 04:38:08 PM by Amy Schumer »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Brad Johnson

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Which is generally why in the event of the death of a spouse, the estate flows directly to the surviving spouse without having to go through probate. 

.....


1)  Prepare wills or living trusts, so that your final wishes are in writing as to the disposal of your assets.



Small correction - in most community property states the estate flows directly to the first living heir which may, or may not, be the spouse depending on state law. Consult your state's heirship hierarchy (usually called "intestate succession") for details.

Example: A Texas resident passes, intestate. Surviving spouse. Surviving child of the marriage. Texas intestate succession recognizes spouse as first heir, child as second. Spouse gets 100% of the community property (called "marital equity" in Texas and many other states because it only applies to equity realized after marriage) and 1/3 of personal property (all property not falling under marital equity status). Child, as second heir, gets the remaining personal property. In plain English, spouse gets 100% of everything realized after marriage and 1/3 of possessions acquired prior to marriage. Child gets the rest.

Wills are important, event if it's just a simple couple of lines designating and heir and a executor/executrix. It saves everyone a pile of hassle and grief. More detail is always better. Estate division can cause all manner of family strife. Better to have it lined out beforehand. Writing a simple will isn't difficult but consult your state's executory requirements (what it takes for the will to be an executable legal document) before breaking out the crayons and Big Chief tablet.

Very much agree on the pre-payment of final expenses, or at least stipulating in the will that expenses incurred on the decedent's behalf will be reimbursed from the estate. The simplest of performed funerals will run upwards of $10k if it includes burial. Even with no-frills preparations, cremation, and no formal memorial service, final preparations can still be several thousand dollars when all the incidentals are considered.

Brad
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Fly320s

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Quote
There are nine community property states: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Washington and Wisconsin. Alaska is an opt-in community property state that gives both parties the option to make their property community property.

According to LegalZoom.com via Google search.
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Kingcreek

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I could write a documentary or maybe even a mini series about how NOT to die and leave your affairs.

Short version- I was executor for an estate 3 years ago. Self employed alcoholic gun dealer/trader died with $800 in the bank and $45k in credit card debt, about $10k additional debt, a small house with mortgage balance about equal to market value. Small commercial property in terrible shape occupied by a small business that hadn't paid any rent in 4 years. Unknown number of guns were stolen from the house the day he was found dead in his bed. 2 adult sons that hadn't spoken to him in years but showed up for their share of the fortune. Still had a truckload of guns but some people filed believable claims of ownership and 2 were surrendered to the BATF agent because they were illegal to posses or sell.
2 big auctions and I logged almost 300 hours cleaning up that mess. Got him buried, liquidated or disposed of  everything, and I handed each son a check far smaller than what they had hoped for.
What we have here is failure to communicate.

zxcvbob

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I mentioned the house being community property and nothing else is; perhaps I used the wrong terminology.  The deed to the house (no mortgage) is in both our names.  Everything else has my name on it with her as the POD beneficiary, except for her retirement accounts which list me as the beneficiary.  

I forgot about the small joint checking account; I haven't written a check on that account in years.  

I will be talking with a financial planner this afternoon.  I might ask him about all this.
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