Author Topic: Cabela's Lawsuit  (Read 1105 times)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Cabela's Lawsuit
« on: August 09, 2018, 09:58:38 AM »
I just saw Cabela's is being sued because they sold a black powder revolver to a felon who then committed murder with it. This will be an interesting one to watch. I wonder if a federal call to regulate BP arms the same as modern arms will come into play.

The felon bought it over the phone. I guess if I was going to commit a crime, I might be inclined to go into a store in person and pay cash for a BP revolver.

https://bearingarms.com/micah-r/2018/08/08/cabelas-facing-lawsuit/
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

bedlamite

  • Hold my beer and watch this!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,769
  • Ack! PLBTTPHBT!
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 10:14:39 AM »
I wonder if they realize you can get all the ingredients to make it in the Home Depot garden department.
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,671
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 10:18:50 AM »
It sounds as if someone at that store wasn't aware of all the laws governing sales in that location.  That's Cabela's bad, and I suspect they family will get a settlement to go away.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2018, 10:21:52 AM »
It sounds as if someone at that store wasn't aware of all the laws governing sales in that location.  That's Cabela's bad, and I suspect they family will get a settlement to go away.

That part had me confused. If I were to mail order from Cabela's, wouldn't the gun be shipped from a warehouse versus a local Cabela's? Unless he did a "ship to store" thing?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 10:28:39 AM »
Does Ohio have it's own background check system?  I didn't think the Federal system would do background checks for stuff that federal law doesn't restrict.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 11:01:10 AM »
Does Ohio have it's own background check system?  I didn't think the Federal system would do background checks for stuff that federal law doesn't restrict.

Apparently. The story implies state laws, not federal laws, were broken.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 11:17:39 AM »
If he would have bought it in indiana, there would not be a background check, nor a lawsuit...
Then again, he's a CRIMINAL- his very actions indicate that he had no respect for the law. Its sad that 3rd party bystanders have to get sued by the bottom feeders.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,197
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 12:54:52 PM »
It's a modern replica of an 1858 Remington cap-and-ball (percussion cap) revolver. For purposes of purchase, it is not subject to federal laws pertaining to background checks. Anyone can buy one from Cabela's or any other vendor, in person or by mail or Internet order, with no questions asked and no background check. If you buy it by mail or Internet, it doesn't go to an FFL, it comes directly to your house.

Cabela's did not violate any federal laws by selling it to him. Depending on the laws in his state of residence, he most likely violated several laws by purchasing it and possessing it. I would have to review the federal law pertaining to felons and firearms to determine if a replica of an antique percussion cap firearm is included in the definition of what a felon is prohibited from possessing. The article says Ohio state law required a background check, but that may not be true. If he bought it by phone, he wasn't dealing with the local Cabela's store, he was dealing with wherever Cabela's has their telephone calling center, and the gun would have been shipped from a central warehouse. I suspect Ohio is going to have a difficult time proving that such a sale violated any Ohio state laws.

https://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/black-powder-firearms/black-powder-revolvers/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/571854780/i/567338580/pietta-model-new-army-caliber-black-powder-revolver/731695.uts?slotId=1
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 01:33:28 PM »
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/ohio/

Quote
Antiques and Replicas
Antique and antique replica rifles, shotguns, or handguns are treated like modern arms for possession, carrying and purchase purposes.

It seems like a gray area big enough to drive a truck through...
Is a replica a firearm, if the original piece its design from is not considered a firearm?
By antiques- do they mean the federal definition of 'antiques' as cartridge rifles, shotguns, handguns manufactured before 1899?
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,197
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 01:47:06 PM »
^^^

I still think the big question is whether or not he bought the gun from a store in Ohio, or if he called in an order and had the gun shipped to him. If the latter, it's interstate commerce and Cabela's didn't have any requirement to run a background check. And I doubt the Ohio law covers the purchase of blackpowder accessories, such as what's included in the percussion starter kit. The starter kits typically include 100 lead balls, a powder measure, a nipple wrench, a capper, a powder flask, and some wads. The starter kit does not include either caps or powder, so even if you have the gun and the starter kit -- you're still not equipped to load it and shoot it.

https://www.cabelas.com/product/cabela-s-by-pedersoli-black-powder-revolver-starter-kit/1619561.uts?WT.ac=RI-1619561&WT.z_pg_ref=prd731695
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,826
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2018, 02:21:38 PM »
Brimic said,

Quote
Then again, he's a CRIMINAL- his very actions indicate that he had no respect for the law. Its sad that 3rd party bystanders have to get sued by the bottom feeders.

That's where I was heading in my thinking.  What the heck was this guy doing out on the street with a record of violence like that:

https://bearingarms.com/micah-r/2018/08/08/cabelas-facing-lawsuit/

Quote
In its article, The Columbus Dispatch explains that Claren has quite the rap sheet. In 2001, he was convicted of felonious assault, a conviction that should have prevented him from purchasing or possessing a firearm. Almost three decades ago, Claren also broke the arm of a mayor after a traffic stop and “was accused of strangling a patient while working at a psychiatric hospital.”

Though the court acquitted Claren, the hospital fired him–and he wasn’t happy.

“Claren shot out the windows of the homes of the hospital’s CEO and prosecuting attorney, targeting the rooms of their children,” The Dispatch writes. “While in jail for those charges, he threatened to kill the judge that presided over the case.”

(I'm curious as to what he used to shoot out those windows --a firearm or perhaps an air-powered gun, or a slingshot...?)

Terry
  

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2018, 03:06:31 PM »
Apparently. The story implies state laws, not federal laws, were broken.
That is what I was getting at.  If Ohio requires black powder replicas to be treated as firearms, will the BATFE run a background check on it?  I thought they have refused to take on extra work from states that try to expand their background check requirements.  How do stores in Ohio sell black powder firearms?  The article seems to imply they should have done a background check, but I wasn't sure how they normally do it.  

Of course, this is a lawsuit, not a criminal charge.  That implies they can't drag Cabela's into criminal court so they are trying to sue in civil court.
Okay, I missed the part where this was the victim's family suing.

Do Cabela's in Ohio sell black powder guns?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:40:24 PM by MechAg94 »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2018, 03:09:12 PM »
Brimic said,

That's where I was heading in my thinking.  What the heck was this guy doing out on the street with a record of violence like that:

https://bearingarms.com/micah-r/2018/08/08/cabelas-facing-lawsuit/

(I'm curious as to what he used to shoot out those windows --a firearm or perhaps an air-powered gun, or a slingshot...?)

Terry
  
I think the 'shooting out the windows' incident is from 3 decades ago if I read the article correctly.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

JN01

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2018, 04:29:14 PM »
Does Ohio have it's own background check system?  I didn't think the Federal system would do background checks for stuff that federal law doesn't restrict.

No, Ohio does not.  Legally, black powder guns are in the same category as cartridge guns, but there is no mechanism for running background checks on them.

Brad Johnson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,030
  • Witty, charming, handsome, and completely insane.
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2018, 05:35:58 PM »
No, Ohio does not.  Legally, black powder guns are in the same category as cartridge guns, but there is no mechanism for running background checks on them.

Doesn't that constitute a de facto ban? Those have been universally struck down, at least in recent history.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2018, 05:56:42 PM »
Doesn't that constitute a de facto ban? Those have been universally struck down, at least in recent history.

Brad

No.  It means you can buy one without going through a background check.   As apparently was the case here.

Illinois treats BP guns as firearms and the State Police run the background check system here.  From 430 ILCS 65:

Quote
"Firearm" means any device, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas; excluding, however:
        (1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels a single globular projectile not exceeding .18 inch in diameter or which has a maximum muzzle velocity of less than 700 feet per second;
        (1.1) any pneumatic gun, spring gun, paint ball gun, or B-B gun which expels breakable paint balls containing washable marking colors;
        (2) any device used exclusively for signalling or safety and required or recommended by the United States Coast Guard or the Interstate Commerce Commission;
        (3) any device used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition; and
        (4) an antique firearm (other than a machine-gun) which, although designed as a weapon, the Department of State Police finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

So if you are felon in Illinois, you cannot purchase or possess any firearm, BP gun, or air rifle beyond a Daisy Red Rider.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2018, 09:18:37 AM »
No.  It means you can buy one without going through a background check.   As apparently was the case here.

Illinois treats BP guns as firearms and the State Police run the background check system here.  From 430 ILCS 65:

So if you are felon in Illinois, you cannot purchase or possess any firearm, BP gun, or air rifle beyond a Daisy Red Rider.

They could go into Indiana or WI and buy a ball and cap revolver, or a hawken rifle (18th century assault rifle) , no questions asked, then go back to chicago and do drive-bys. This is the left's explanation of chicago 'gun violence.'
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2018, 09:37:56 AM »
No, Ohio does not.  Legally, black powder guns are in the same category as cartridge guns, but there is no mechanism for running background checks on them.
That begs the question:  What was Cabela's supposed to do here? 

Maybe they need to modify the script for their phone ordering people to ask if the purchaser has a felony record.  That will solve the problem.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Cabela's Lawsuit
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2018, 10:04:30 AM »
That begs the question:  What was Cabela's supposed to do here? 

Maybe they need to modify the script for their phone ordering people to ask if the purchaser has a felony record.  That will solve the problem.

Heh. Then they'll probably get sued by the ACLU.  :laugh:
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."