Author Topic: Only the police should be allowed to have guns  (Read 6115 times)

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2018, 04:38:51 PM »
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the respect and trust they claim to want so much. 

I don't think they want respect and trust. My opinion is that "they" want fear and obedience.
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2018, 05:15:56 PM »
The video showed that the complex has electronic keys, so the victim probably opened the door to see who was trying to get in.  I bet he thought that it was someone either lost or drunk, and he was simply going to direct them to their apartment.

And yes, the officer should be charged.  It's not murder (no premeditation), but definitely aggravated manslaughter.  If Texas has something like that.  She should not walk free not matter what. 
Last I heard all the particulars, premeditated murder would be "capital murder".  They have a murder and maybe a 2nd degree murder and manslaughter that have different definitions.  I am not sure where this one fits in, but the mistake of being in the wrong place was hers.  And if she went into the "command voice" mode that makes it worse IMO.  As said above, were she not a police officer, she would have been in jail immediately.
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2018, 10:38:13 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zfl7PhZvn0
This is a cop or former cop talking about the whole thing.  He gives more detail of the encounter than I thought the article did.  He did point out that trying to charge her with a harsher murder charge could result in acquittal if the known facts don't support it.

The main inequality I see in this whole thing is I think a non-cop would have been arrested immediately and never let go without being charged and with hefty bail.  I can sort of understand it as the responding officers would know her.  But they are charging her with a serious crime that is likely to stick unless some other information comes out completely different than what we have been told.  We will see where this goes.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 01:16:34 AM »
I don't think they want respect and trust. My opinion is that "they" want fear and obedience.

Indeed, most (I say most -- certainly "many") police want instantaneous compliance with whatever they tell us to do -- whether or not what they tell us to do makes any sense whatsoever.

But ... they also want us to respect and trust them. And too many of them can't see the inherent conflict in that attitude.
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just Warren

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 01:36:35 AM »
I think they're going to use the "he didn't comply with her commands" line to blame his death totally on him.

They'll admit that, yes, she made a mistake in going to the wrong apartment but as soon as he saw she was a police officer in uniform it was his obligation to do everything she said. He didn't, therefore, because she was in fear for her life, her weapon was discharged which lead to the death of the subject.

So she'll get a slap on the wrist, the family will get a big payout and we'll all forget about this in a few months.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 03:45:16 AM »
I think they're going to use the "he didn't comply with her commands" line to blame his death totally on him.

They'll admit that, yes, she made a mistake in going to the wrong apartment but as soon as he saw she was a police officer in uniform it was his obligation to do everything she said. He didn't, therefore, because she was in fear for her life, her weapon was discharged which lead to the death of the subject.

So she'll get a slap on the wrist, the family will get a big payout and we'll all forget about this in a few months.

I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.
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Fly320s

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 06:43:40 AM »
I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.

I think the officer will be prosecuted and convicted.  It won't be for murder, but she won't go free.

For good or bad, there is a strong public opinion that is influencing the police and DA. 
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Ben

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 09:01:56 AM »
The main inequality I see in this whole thing is I think a non-cop would have been arrested immediately and never let go without being charged and with hefty bail. 

Word.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 11:41:29 AM »
I think the officer will be prosecuted and convicted.  It won't be for murder, but she won't go free.

For good or bad, there is a strong public opinion that is influencing the police and DA. 

As much as I decry the role of the officer in the incident, I certainly don't think the charge should be murder. I am inclined to accept the likelihood that her story is true: that she was tired, she went to the wrong apartment and, seeing what she thought was an intruder in "her" apartment, she opened fire when he didn't obey her commands. As the police officer in that video commented, I don't think when she got off duty she decided on the drive home that, "I think when I get home I'll just go upstairs and kill that black dude who lives over me." I think it was a tragic error, but the punishment should fit the crime, and I don't think the crime was murder. I think manslaughter or negligent homicide would be appropriate.

I've done exactly the same thing the cop in his video described: come out of a store, walked up to "my" car, and wondered why I couldn't unlock the doors -- only to realize that, oops, my car was one aisle over and five stalls down. I'm not proud to admit that this has happened more than once.
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 12:14:50 PM »
I think they're going to use the "he didn't comply with her commands" line to blame his death totally on him.

They'll admit that, yes, she made a mistake in going to the wrong apartment but as soon as he saw she was a police officer in uniform it was his obligation to do everything she said. He didn't, therefore, because she was in fear for her life, her weapon was discharged which lead to the death of the subject.

So she'll get a slap on the wrist, the family will get a big payout and we'll all forget about this in a few months.
She has already been charged.  So we will see where that process leads. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

just Warren

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2018, 02:43:27 PM »
She has already been charged.  So we will see where that process leads. 

It's going in front of the Grand Jury. If the prosecutor wants to tank the case he has a grand opportunity here.

The warrant for the search of the apartment is here:

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Officer-Amber-Guygers-Arrest-Warrant-Details-Shooting-Inside-Neighbors-Apartment-492889781.html#warrant

Quote
There is at said suspected place and premises the following
item(s) constituting evidence of a criminal offense: Fired Cartridge
Casings, fired projectiles, firearms, ballistic vest, keys, trace
evidence such as .blood, video surveillance systenn any' contraband,
such as narcotics, and other items that may have been used in criminal
offenses are located in the above described residence.


(Bolding mine.)


Is looking for "contraband" normal in a situation like this or are they going in hoping to find something that could make Jean look like he was at fault for his own death?
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2018, 03:10:50 PM »
Makes me wonder if that is sort of default language so they can legally poke around for stuff unrelated to the shooting. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2018, 05:09:43 PM »
I thought search warrants were supposed to be limited to looking for items relating to the [alleged] crime being investigated. It doesn't matter if the guy had a printing press and was printing fake U.S. twenty dollar bills, it has nothing to do with the cop's shooting him, so it doesn't belong on the search warrant. Same for narcotics, unless they're going to claim that the cop was smoking a joint when she opened the door and dropped it in the entry hallway when she started shooting. The crime being investigated is a homicide, not dealing in [___]
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just Warren

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2018, 09:33:30 PM »

David Burge
‏ @iowahawkblog

David Burge Retweeted FOX 4 NEWS

Quote
off duty Dallas cop stumbles into guy's apartment, for no apparent reason, shoots him dead. Dallas PD response: LOOK LOOK HE HAD WEED

Quote
DEVELOPING: Search warrant: Marijuana found in Botham Jean’s apartment after deadly shooting http://bit.ly/2D2fd0u



https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2018/09/13/who-gives-a-fk-marijuana-found-in-search-after-man-shot-dead-in-his-own-apartment-by-off-duty-cop/
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2018, 10:19:58 AM »
Why would they need a search warrant to search the scene of the crime? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2018, 04:12:09 PM »
Why would they need a search warrant to search the scene of the crime?  

Because the weed wasn't in plain sight of the area where the body was found. They had to have a reason an excuse to look farther so they could find something -- anything -- to deflect the story from the fact that a sister officer had just killed an innocent man in his own home.

The real question is why the *expletive deleted*ck any judge would have approved a search warrant for the home of a dead man who was just killed by a police officer due to no fault of his (the deceased's) own.
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dogmush

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2018, 04:18:54 PM »
Because the weed wasn't in plain sight of the area where the body was found. They had to have a reason an excuse to look farther so they could find something -- anything -- to deflect the story from the fact that a sister officer had just killed an innocent man in his own home.

The real question is why the *expletive deleted*ck any judge would have approved a search warrant for the home of a dead man who was just killed by a police officer due to no fault of his (the deceased's) own.

Get with the program,  it was completely his fault. Did you not read where he didn't follow her commands?

MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2018, 09:02:34 PM »
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169631/amp/Search-warrant-says-Dallas-cop-trying-open-black-neighbors-door-set-keys.html?__twitter_impression=true

This looked like some new information, but I am not certain.  The quote below was at the top, but further down the article says all the same stuff the original articles said.  We'll see.
Quote
A newly released search warrant claims the Dallas cop was trying to open the door with a set of keys when he confronted her and she shot him, a bombshell revelation which significantly undermines her claim she found him sitting inside in the dark.

The report was obtained by DailyMail.com on Friday. It explains why police wanted to search Jean's apartment after his killing for evidence which may inform the Guyger's case.

It says police officer Amber Guyger, 30, did not arrive at Both Jean's apartment to find the door ajar but rather was trying to unlock it with her set of keys when she appeared there last Thursday after a shift.

She 'was attempting to enter apartment 1478, with a set of keys', the officer who wrote the report said, when Botham confronted her at the door.

The report reads: 'During this incident, an off-duty Dallas Police Officer who was wearing a full Dallas Police uniform, was attempting to enter apartment number 1478, with a set of keys.

'An unknown male, inside the apartment, confronted the officer at the door. A neighbor stated that he heard an exchange of words, immediately followed by at least two gunshots.

'The officer possibly believed the subject was an intruder, drew her service weapon and fired at the subject, striking him in the chest.' 

Neighbors then heard a brief exchange of words and then gunshots
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2018, 10:33:22 PM »
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169631/amp/Search-warrant-says-Dallas-cop-trying-open-black-neighbors-door-set-keys.html?__twitter_impression=true

This looked like some new information, but I am not certain.  The quote below was at the top, but further down the article says all the same stuff the original articles said.  We'll see.

Actually, the initial article I read reported that she tried to open the door and the the occupant then opened it. The business about her finding the door "ajar" was inserted into the narrative later on -- perhaps to try to help her case.

Meanwhile, it appears the National Review shares the same concerns that many of us have expressed.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/09/amber-guyger-botham-jean-shooting-police-must-face-impartial-justice/
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Fly320s

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2018, 09:18:20 AM »
Getting a warrant after the fact is pretty standard these days.  It is used primarily to preserve evidence and further the investigation.  I doubt the cops went looking for evidence against the victim.

My guess is that the cops were searching for a video or audio recording, such as a security camera or similar, when they discovered the dope.  Other than a news article, no offcial person is making a big deal about the drugs.
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Pb

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2018, 12:01:57 PM »
You know- I think I have figured out my feelings on police shootings. 

When the person being shot is an actual criminal doing bad things- robbing, stealing, attacking people- I give the cops wide latitude in the use of force. 

When it is an innocent person killed by "mistake" or incompetence, that is when it outrages me.  Like this.

Sounds like manslaughter to me.

MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2018, 02:22:23 PM »
Yeah, one comment that was on the video I posted earlier was a warning about getting too aggressive with the charges.  If you want to insure a conviction, don't over-charge beyond what the evidence can prove.

And if it hasn't been mentioned, I understand this investigation was turned over to the Texas Rangers which would be a state level agency. 
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2018, 08:09:44 AM »
If one thought they were in their apartment, why would you have to walk outside to look at the apt #?


Quote
The affidavit claims Guyger only realized she was in the wrong apartment when 911 dispatchers asked for the location of the shooting. “Upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment,” the document states.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblaze.com/news/2018/09/16/bombshell-discovery-in-dallas-police-shooting-of-man-in-wrong-apartment-leads-to-more-questions/amp
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MechAg94

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2018, 09:16:16 AM »
If one thought they were in their apartment, why would you have to walk outside to look at the apt #?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblaze.com/news/2018/09/16/bombshell-discovery-in-dallas-police-shooting-of-man-in-wrong-apartment-leads-to-more-questions/amp

What I heard previously is that the lights were off when the shooting took place.  Supposedly she turned on the lights while calling 911 and she realized she wasn't in her apartment.  She had to go to the door to confirm where she was and tell 911 where to dispatch help.   
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Only the police should be allowed to have guns
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2018, 10:34:52 AM »
If one thought they were in their apartment, why would you have to walk outside to look at the apt #?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblaze.com/news/2018/09/16/bombshell-discovery-in-dallas-police-shooting-of-man-in-wrong-apartment-leads-to-more-questions/amp



It's entirely possible for a person to have trouble recalling their own address, especially after having shot someone. I think what's more likely is that she had realized by then the interior of the apartment didn't match her own.
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