The European Army

[Ben]

I'm interested in APS thoughts on this. For those who haven't heard, Macron is floating the idea of an EU army to handle threats like Russia, China, and oh yeah, the US as well.

My opinion is that while there are some strategic reasons for the US presence in Western Europe, it would be interesting to see them stand up this "European Army" to take over the protections we provide and let us use our resources elsewhere and save that metric boatload of money we spend on our European presence. Or at least our presence in the countries behind this. Seems like some countries like Poland are willing to work with us and even pay their fair share to do so.

Again, I don't have the strategic expertise to comment on potential detrimental effects for us if we vacated parts of Europe, but it seems much of the reason we're in those places at this point in time is because those countries (and Europe in general) don't provide their own resources to a necessary degree.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-rips-macron-after-landing-in-france-over-insulting-call-for-european-army

[MillCreek]

I have been reading about this concept for years.  The EU pays lip service to it, but they have been sucking the American teat for so long, a lot of needed capability has either never been developed or has atrophied.  Good examples are aerial refueling and long-haul air transport.  Other than maybe the UK, how long would it take the EU to send a division or even battalion 1000 miles away?  The recent performance of the 'United EU military', in the bombing of Libya, was a disgrace.  We had to backfill the munitions, once the EU used all theirs up, and we did the majority, if not all, the aerial refueling, major logistics and intelligence.

I would be thrilled if we could save some money on European defense because the EU stood up on their own two feet, but I will believe it when I see it.  See also the absolutely miserable 'mission-ready rate' of the Germans, for their navy and air force.

[HankB]

Macron is floating this idea?

With the French leading an EU army, prudence suggests their battle flag be three white fleur-de-lis on a field of white . . .

And their tanks can have 4 reverse gears - but they'll still have one forward gear for safety. (In case the enemy sneaks around to their rear.)

[Fly320s]

I think Trump should call bullshit on Macron's idea.  End all military support to France and any other EU countries that agree with Macron.  Let them stand on their own two feet for a change.

[French G.]

Frenchy military jokes aside, they have a capable army. And this is the dumbest thing I have heard this busy week. Without a nuclear threat, you don't stand up to Russia. So does France surrender sovereignty of its nuke force? Think that's why they do their own not nato thing to begin with. Anyone else got a spare nuke that is not named Britain? So if this was serious anyone pushing for a brexit do over vote is a treasonous treasonist and across the channel they should get rid of macron.

Now say you do have this grand eurotrash army and you retain control of your own nukes as France. Don't you get to call all the shots since you're the one bailing out everyone else?

[Viking]

I have this feeling that the proposed army will be used more as a way to crush popular uprisings against the EU in the future. Or to enforce the will of Brussels in countries like Hungary or the Czech Republic over the refugee issue.

[MechAg94]

I have this feeling that the proposed army will be used more as a way to crush popular uprisings against the EU in the future. Or to enforce the will of Brussels in countries like Hungary or the Czech Republic over the refugee issue.

That is my thought.  Not just an army for defense.  I doubt it will happen any time soon though. 

I still think we should break with NATO or set up something new.  Russia will be strategic power going forward, but they aren't the threat they were in the Cold War.  No reason to maintain Cold War alliances. 

[Scout26]

If the Euros want to keep Russia in check, then we should give the Germans and Poles a bunch of Nukes and pull out all our troops and withdrawal from NATO.   'cause all the good European soldiers died in the snows on the retreats from Moscow.

"Have fun storming the castle !!"

[Hawkmoon]

I think more than one "expert" commented that the benefit of our invading both Iraq and Afghanistan was that we were fighting the terrorists on their turf rather than ours. Maybe the same holds true for our forces in NATOland -- although the Russians' and Chinese capabilities with nukes and long-range missiles may ten to override any advantage being on their doorstep might seem to offer.

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm thinking that this time around we let them learn to speak Russian or Arabic.
Two saves from letting them speak German doesn't seem to have taught them anything.

[French G.]

Nobody wants to note that historically the biggest threat to Europe is Europe.

[Hawkmoon]

Nobody wants to note that historically the biggest threat to Europe is Europe.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[lee n. field]

I have this feeling that the proposed army will be used more as a way to crush popular uprisings against the EU in the future. Or to enforce the will of Brussels in countries like Hungary or the Czech Republic over the refugee issue.

That.

[Scout26]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j20voPS0gI

[Pb]

I have this feeling that the proposed army will be used more as a way to crush popular uprisings against the EU in the future. Or to enforce the will of Brussels in countries like Hungary or the Czech Republic over the refugee issue.

Yes.

[MechAg94]

I doubt we would completely leave Europe if we dissolved NATO.  I think someone like Poland would still be interested in having us.  Maybe the Czechs also, but who knows.  I see Europe either changing or getting into their own civil war in the coming decades.  I don't think we want to get dragged into either assuming we aren't in the same boat.  

[Ben]

I doubt we would completely leave Europe if we dissolved NATO.  I think someone like Poland would still be interested in having us.  Maybe the Czechs also, but who knows.  

As I said, I don't have the strategic expertise, but from the strategic/tactical side, it seems Germany, for instance is not as critical now as it once was regarding a US presence. Perhaps Poland is just as good for asset staging. I listened to the joint talk a couple of months ago with Trump and the Polish president. The Polish president was practically begging that we expand in their country, and I think he has even now said that he will foot much of the bill for infrastructure.

[MechAg94]

As I said, I don't have the strategic expertise, but from the strategic/tactical side, it seems Germany, for instance is not as critical now as it once was regarding a US presence. Perhaps Poland is just as good for asset staging. I listened to the joint talk a couple of months ago with Trump and the Polish president. The Polish president was practically begging that we expand in their country, and I think he has even now said that he will foot much of the bill for infrastructure.

That is what made me think of Poland.  I also figure they know they aren't the favorite of others in Europe and would be a better ally in future years.

Someone mentioned nukes above.  I figure most of the European nations could make their own if they really wanted to.  No need to give them anything.  They would probably just try to threaten us with them.

[Hawkmoon]

Someone mentioned nukes above.  I figure most of the European nations could make their own if they really wanted to.  No need to give them anything.  They would probably just try to threaten us with them.

This. We definitely don't want to be handing out nukes. As Marie Antionette is reputed to have said, "Let them eat cake." If they want nukes, they can figure out how to make their own nukes.

[French G.]

They have nukes. I went back and read some more, interesting to me that the Frenchies have no more land based missiles, all SLBM and air to surface missiles.

[Fly320s]

Other good reasons to increase our presence in Poland:

https://www.google.com/search?q=polish+women&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS746US747&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRy_zeqNDeAhWiUt8KHYpWDZMQ_AUIEygB&biw=1368&bih=810

[Scout26]

20-30 years ago Europe was worth saving, and defending.  Now, I don't think it's worth the life of "one Pomeranian Grenadier".  Yes, Poland and Baltics seem to really like us (for now), simply because Big Bad Putin is sitting on their doorstep. Kinda like how Brezenhev was sitting on (West) Germany's doorstep during the Cold War.  Everyone wants to be our bestest buddy when the wolf is at the door, but we can just *expletive deleted*ck-off when the threat goes away.  And *expletive deleted*ck us over on trade in the mean-time.

I'm tried of spending American blood and treasure defending ungrateful Euro-trash, especially when they aren't willing to foot the bill.  So yeah, if Poland and the Baltics are willing to pay (and by "pay", I mean the cost of payroll, equipment, maintenance, R&D, and infastructure), then fine.  I'm good with us being a mercenary Army.  At least it will be at no net cost to the US Taxpayer.

[MechAg94]

I thought we got some benefit out of having the base and medical facilities in Germany with all of our Middle East and Asian wars over the last 30 years.  Is it just the base or is part of the benefit having the right to overfly those counties also?  

Just thinking we may want a base somewhere in Europe, but just because the base is currently in Germany doesn't mean it has to remain there. 

[gunsmith]

eu saying they wan't an army is about as serious as a 12yr old teen telling his buddies about how he trained with navy seal team six

[RoadKingLarry]

eu saying they wan't an army is about as serious as a 12yr old teen telling his buddies about how he trained with navy seal team six

Those guys making false claims about training with SEALs really annoy those of us that have actually trained* with Navy SEALs.

*On our '89-'90 Med run my boat picked up a detachment of SEALs. As I was slow to adjust back to boat food and low activity levels I put on a few pounds and earned the privileged of being on the "fat boy" program. Because of that I got to participate in PT with the SEALs. PT is Physical Training so I have legitimately "Trained with Navy SEALs"
Also, being a senior enlisted I was also on the rotation for School of the Boat (AKA SOB) instructor. Wherein instruction about ship's systems was provided to the nubs. We had several of the SEALs decide to "Qualify in Submarines" so they attended the training sessions. So, not only have I "trained with Navy SEALs" I have trained Navy SEALs.