Author Topic: Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage  (Read 8815 times)

critter

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« on: March 05, 2005, 02:22:33 PM »
First, let me say that I think the incident is quite regrettable for everybody involved.

If the facts that I have heard reported, however, are even close to true, then what did they expect?Huh? First, they did NO coordination or communication with the US folks in the area. Second, they were approaching a US checkpoint at a high rate of speed. Third, they did not respond to signals to stop but kept coming at the high rate of speed. Fourth, they did not stop when warning shots were fired. Finally, shots were fired (at, into or both) the engine block to stop the car. (Obviously and expectedly, some shots went elsewhere either by design or by accident. It would be remarkable if ALL shots COULD be placed in the engine compartment of a fast moving car.) Regrettably, at least one was killed and the X-hostage lady was wounded. WHAT DID THEY EXPECT??

With the spate of car bombs all over and a very suspicious acting car that did not respond to warnings to stop, the US forces could do nothing else.

Some or all of the reported facts may be in error, but if not, I have to say again, WHAT DID THEY EXPECT!

Your take?

Bogie

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2005, 03:12:01 PM »
Somebody fell offa da stupid tree, and hit their head on every branch until they hit the ground.
 
Then they STILL needed to get whacked wid da clue bat.
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Arc-Lite

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2005, 06:09:04 PM »
In a hot zone...people get shot.... and if your doing something stupid...its sooner then later.
Peace be the Journey......

nico

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2005, 08:18:50 PM »
I agree critter.  The Italian diplomat should be asking HIS people for an explanation.  Everything I've read says the Americans followed standard operating procedure and I don't see how anyone with half a brain can blame them for defending themselves.  It's terrible that the Italians (apparently) didn't think their operateion through well enough.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2005, 01:08:25 AM »
The Italians should have known better. They have or had troops in Iraq as I recall.
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wingman

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2005, 04:08:03 AM »
I suspect driver of car had his "fear mode" on or as some pilots say
"get there at any cost" and he did. :cry:

matt1911

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2005, 04:15:23 AM »
local news last night the hostage denies they were speeding toward the roadblock.Still,why didn't they stop when signaled?i gotta think this falls into the"own damm fault" catagorey.

Dannyboy

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2005, 04:56:14 AM »
Now she says she was targeted.  Of course, according to the terrorists that abducted her, some of us don't want her to go back.  

Hostage fears troops targeted her
Giuliana Sgrena
Sgrena is an avowed opponent of the Iraq war
Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has suggested US troops deliberately tried to kill her moments after she was released by her kidnappers in Baghdad.

Ms Sgrena, writing in her left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto, described how her car came "under a rain of fire".

At that moment, she said she recalled her captors' words that some Americans "don't want you to go back".

The US military, who said troops fired on the speeding car after it failed to stop, has opened a full investigation.

A top Italian secret service agent, Nicola Calipari, died in the incident as he shielded Ms Sgrena from the gunshots.

He had led the efforts to negotiate the release of the correspondent, held captive in Iraq for more than a month.

The body of Mr Calipari, who is being treated as a national hero, is lying in state in an imposing monument in the centre of Rome before a state funeral on Monday.

The incident in Baghdad threatens to have continuing political fallout in Rome, says our correspondent there David Willey.

Pressure will grow on Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, a staunch ally of US President George W Bush, to reconsider the wisdom of keeping on Italian peacekeepers in Iraq, our correspondent says.

Already, the Italian foreign ministry has warned all Italian nationals to avoid travel to Iraq.

Sgrena's account

Details remain unclear about exactly what happened as the car carrying the Italian journalist, Calipari and two other agents made its journey towards Baghdad's airport late on Friday.

The US military says that the car was speeding as it approached a checkpoint and that soldiers used hand signals, flashed lights, and fired warning shots in an attempt to stop it, before opening fire.

A rain of fire and bullets pummelled us, silencing for ever the happy voices of a few minutes before

In her account for Il Manifesto, Ms Sgrena said the kidnappers had released her willingly.

When she got in the car, Calipari took off her blindfold and was "an avalanche of friendly phrases, jokes".

"Nicola Calipari was seated at my side. The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport that I knew was saturated with American troops. We were less than a kilometre they told me... when... I remember there was shooting.

"The driver began screaming that we were Italian, 'We're Italian! We're Italian!'"

Ms Sgrena has said the car was not going particularly fast.

Upon her release, she said, "They [the kidnappers] said they were committed to releasing me, but that I had to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."

In another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

She said she did not know if a ransom was paid for her release - a policy the US does not approve either.

Ms Sgrena was abducted on 4 February, and later appeared in a video begging for help and urging foreign troops to leave Iraq.

Much of the country was opposed to the US-led war in Iraq and the government's decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323361.stm
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Intune

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2005, 06:32:33 AM »
Quote
In another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

Sure it's "possible" even though the soldiers didn't know she was being released.  Didn't know what route she was taking.  Didn't know what type, make or color of vehicle she was in.  Correctly identified her at a high rate of speed and gave the order to open fire because it was her.  Sure, it's "possible."

Quote
"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

She probably shouldn't exclude the possibility that the President , cabinet, congress and senate are all aliens either.   rolleyes

nico

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2005, 06:53:59 AM »
the thing that's most ridiculous about her claims is the idea tha she'd still be alive if they really wanted her dead.  Everything I've seen says they stopped firing when they realized the people in the car weren't hostile

Wildalaska

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2005, 08:08:06 AM »
Tinfoil on...

Shes a communist journalist
Her captors were "obscure"
While captured, she begged for Italy to get out of Iraq
Shes mysteriously released
They charge a checkpoint, army fires up the engine block, one guy "dies" and she has shrapnel
She of course says they were just motoring along when the jackbooted thugs of Bush ism fired em up
Demonstrations start in Italy etc...
Uncle Joe would be proud

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Dannyboy

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2005, 08:14:18 AM »
Here's a good little rant on the subject.
 From Martha to Injured Hostages.
Posted at 9:54 am on 3/6/2005

I have been listening to the news about the freed Italian hostage. At first I was like wow thats messed up. Then I heard more about the incident and thought about it. Despite her claims that they werent speeding towards that patrol, something was not right. Now that Martha Stewart isnt the top story we got this freed Italian saying the Coalition is nothing but a bunch of loose cannons. Of course she isnt going to agree that the vehicle in which they were in was speeding towards the patrol. That would not give the man who died in that vehicle the dignity in which his death is based upon, that he saved her life while Mongoloid US troops opened fire at them.

I really liked this quote: She said she remembered something her captors had told her: They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me, but I had to be careful  the Americans dont want you to go back. At the time, she said, I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths.

Now there is this condition that when people begin to relate to their captors and believe what they are saying and this lady obviously had it. These captors are the same (expletive deleted) that have been cutting peoples heads off! So she is just going to accept what they say and discount everything the Americans are doing over there.

I dont feel so bad anymore. I am thinking that she is pissed that her driver screwed up and her vehicle got lit up. She is lucky if anything. Yes it would have been more of a tragedy if she was killed but even then the bottom line is her vehicle was making an aggressive move towards that US Patrol. PERIOD! We own the roads over there for a reason. No one likes to read that 2, 4, 6 Soldiers were killed due to a Vehicle Borne IED (VBIED).

So this lady wants to throw mud all over what the coalition is doing over there and begins to question our Rules of Engagement. I say that if you mess with our already limited ROE then you jeopardize our lives. Im sorry she got hit and her friend died but someone should of told that driver to slow down and if anything, drive very slow towards that patrol and asked if they could of convoyed them to the airport. However we could what if all day. That is a war zone and people die.

We are trained to make sound judgments and follow the ROE. The military trains us to observe vehicles coming towards you, if you feel threatened and think that vehicle is coming towards you without yielding then you can fire a warning shot. Trust me; people know when they are being fired at. If they still continue to drive towards you without slowing down, then you light that vehicle up. People know the rules over there, if they want to play games then they are liable to get hurt. This isnt about giving Soldiers a license to kill; this is just how the environment is. They wouldnt give us such ROE if this wasnt a problem over there. People are using their vehicles to kill Soldiers.

I would have done the same thing if faced with the same scenario. I would have done exactly what I was trained to do. No questions asked!
http://www.soldierlife.com/

Edit:  Oops.  I thought I got them all the first time around.
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Intune

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2005, 09:11:24 AM »
you might want to clean the "F" bombs up.  I think Art's grammaw might visit here too.  Just a friendly heads-up.   Wink

grampster

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2005, 09:21:38 AM »
WA beat me to the punch on comments.  She is a communist, writes for a communist newpaper, and most of the people that the media portrays as being incensed about this and for that matter anything having to do with Iraq are also communists, which there are many in Italy.

The incident is regretable, but under the circumstances, I will side with our troops doing what they do properly unless convinced otherwise.  I don't think that's going to happen.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

mfree

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2005, 09:03:43 AM »
I say the soldiers rerquire counselling and special training.  Why?

They missed their target. Why is she still breathing?

spacemanspiff

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2005, 09:11:11 AM »
i think its interesting that the bbc described the 'journalists' newspaper as 'left wing'; the link i found on yahoo news described it as 'communist'.

i'm sure the line is real fine and sometimes indistinguishable.
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Sean Smith

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2005, 12:56:49 PM »
Woman sounds like a total nutjob.   rolleyes

Michigander

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2005, 03:14:58 PM »
So the anti-war Italians now have a martyr, a hero and a rallying cry.

If she was released "willingly", why would they need to be speeding to the airport? I believe they were, but how stupid.

And if the US wanted her dead, they would not have had a better excuse or cover to do so than a speeding car, or if not speeding, one that would not stop per signals or warning shots, so that would mean that the driver of the car would be in on the conspiracy too.

It doesn't make any sense.

The only story that seems to make sense to me is that the car would not stop for signals, would not stop for warning shots, and then the US fired upon the vehicle, regardless of whom was inside the vehicle.
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Ben

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2005, 03:28:40 PM »
I don't want  to make light of the situation, but really -- an Italian driver and he was driving slowly and reasonably?

One of the most frightening experiences of my life was driving in Italy. Those people are crazy and impatient drivers. I wouldn't at all doubt the driver was just driving in his accustomed manner -- fast and reckless -- right into a roadblock.

Not to say that I won't borrow some of WildAlaska's tinfoil and say that though I would need more evidence to believe this was staged as a "trap" for US soldiers, I'm certainly up for believing that this Communist newspaper reporter is using circumstances to the advantage of her cause. I might also believe there's a little Helsinki Syndrome going on.

Edited to add: also at this point it might not be too far-fetched to, as Grampster suggests below, believe she was never even being held. This whole she-bang definitely needs to be thoroughly investigated.
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grampster

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2005, 03:28:42 PM »
How about this:

She was never captured by terrorists.  She was on vacation in Syria.  Her Commie rag put together a propaganda film showing that she was kidnapped by a heretofore unknown group of terrortist, begging for her life.  Back to cocktails and sailing.   Sneak into Iraq and pull off a staged fast get away to prove that the "insurgents" are really just nice guys who object to the "American Occupation", who's motto is "Why can't we all just get along".

While laughing and giggling about the fast one they pulled on the American oppressors, while sipping some French wine and not paying attention to where they were, wound up with their pictures in the dictionary next to the word "Backfire". rolleyes
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Leatherneck

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Shooting of the Italian journalist, X-hostage
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2005, 03:56:42 AM »
Quote
I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target,


Delusions of Grandeur.
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