Author Topic: Interesting 4th Amendment case.  (Read 3438 times)

Scout26

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Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« on: December 20, 2018, 07:04:23 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/18/she-swiped-her-co-workers-coke-can-police-say-it-cracked-year-old-murder-case/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6026e6a2effd

I'd have to say that the evidence (sadly) needs to be tossed.  Even though the cow-orker came up with the idea to grab the coke can on her own.  She would not have done that if she hadn't been approached by the police and asked if she could get some evidence.

And as much as I think the guy (and I'm also questioning the validity of the DNA evidence these days, given that there has been shenanigans with it in the past) is most likely guilty, I hate to this type of 4A violation.   
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griz

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2018, 08:05:39 AM »
First, I thought once you threw something in the trash you gave up ownership of it, and thus privacy rights.

Second, the court can order a DNA test of an individual if they have reason to suspect them of a crime.  While the way the can was obtained would have chain of custody issues, I would assume a perfect DNA match would be good probably cause.
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K Frame

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2018, 08:20:25 AM »
"First, I thought once you threw something in the trash you gave up ownership of it, and thus privacy rights."

True, if it's at your home.

I don't know how it applies to businesses where there are items from numerous other people entering the trash stream.

But, if what is recounted in the article is true, she was acting not as a concerned private citizen, but as a de facto agent of the police.

As such, I agree, the evidence was obtained through an unwarranted means and should be tossed. I don't know if there's Federal or Supreme Court rulings on issues such as this, but there have been rulings in numerous states that I believe largely agree that if the citizen acts as an agent of the police and obtains evidence without a warrant, the evidence is tainted.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2018, 08:32:52 AM »
First, if a non-law enforcement officer acts on the direction of an LEO, the action is considered to be LEO action.  We see that a lot with non-LEO authorities...teachers, hospital employees, etc... who often work near law enforcement in certain situations and LEOs used to "suggest" an action to the non-LEO that would help their case.  

Second, the question here is more about the expectation of privacy of the person with respect to the item.  Say, for instance, this guy had a partial Coke in his home.  He invited a friend in who(upon suggestion or direction from an LEO) snatched up the can while visiting and took it to the police.  Clearly, in his own home, the guy would expect privacy with respect to the can, and other items in that home.  With that reasonable expectation of privacy, LEOs would need to obtain a warrant to conduct a search and obtain the can (and as described above, this would include a Non-LEO acting at the direction of an LEO).  Now, guy in his office tosses the can in a trash can, even in his private office at a workplace, and he starts to abandon that expectation of privacy.  It's fact dependent (does a custodian empty the can, is it a can in a public or private location, etc.)  But, in general terms, if you throw something in the trash, you've given up your privacy rights on that item, and LEOs can seize it without need for a warrant.  In my part of the world, drug enforcement cops will often seize the trash of a home suspected of drug activity and look to see if there's evidence of such in the trash.  Occasionally, to maintain the covert nature of the investigation, they will match trash bags and swap out a bag of trash for the trash from the home, so no one notices the trash gone before the haulers come.  Important point...in a private location, just because you put the trash in a bag/can doesn't abandon all privacy rights until you put the trash out.  Example, if you keep your cans in your garage, or your backyard, etc., LEOs cannot come onto your property and take the trash.  They have to wait until it hits the curb.

Now, as Mike points out, this isn't trash on the curb, it's in a can in a shared location.  If I was going to place a bet, I"d say the outcome here is going to depend a lot on the judge.  If the judge is a big privacy rights supporter, the finding will be that the trash was still private until collected by a custodian for disposal, or placed in a receptacle for collection (put in the dumpster, etc.)  If the judge leans LEO's way, I'd expect a ruling that the guy abandoned his privacy rights when he tossed the can/cup in a shared trash bin.  Where it goes on appeal is anyone's guess. 

Oh, and as a practical point, I'd also wonder how much the nature of the crime may impact the case.  In my experience, the more heinous the offense, the more likely a judge will allow the evidence to be admissible.  Judges are humans, after all, and are less likely to throw out evidence in close-call situations if the offense is violent.  The more violent or gruesome, the more likely the close call will go the way of law enforcement.  This is only on close call cases.  No brainer situations need not apply.
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griz

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2018, 04:04:45 PM »
  Judges are humans, after all, and are less likely to throw out evidence in close-call situations if the offense is violent.  The more violent or gruesome, the more likely the close call will go the way of law enforcement. 

I was thinking the same thing.  Even trying as hard as you can to be unbiased, there is that little voice in your head that says "but now I KNOW" he killed somebody".
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Scout26

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »
Thing is.  The trash wasn't taken to the curb.  It was removed from company property, that the company had previously denied entry to the police.  They gave her the idea to get "something" they could use.  Yes, she choose the coke can and cup, but she would not have done so without the police prompting.

And yes, I get it the guy is a rapist and murderer, but he still has rights.  And I've always believed that if we are going to put someone in a cage for an extended period, then we have to make sure that we do everything 100% right and above board.  Otherwise, it's a slippery slope where it gets easier and easier to violate people's rights.
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230RN

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 05:45:41 PM »
Didn't the article say she stepped up and volunteered to help the police?

My thinking is that if the Company denied access, for whatever reason (probably just liability), and the guy did not want to give a sample, the police should be stymied, and should not be using a "black ops" procedure to obtain evidence.

Throw the DNA evidence out, even notwithstanding the chain of custody problem and the heinousness of the crime.

I do not like the idea of LEOs just trying stuff and "let's see what the Courts say about it," although I suspect that a lot of that is at the instigation of the prosecutors.  The boiling frog "slippery slope" erosion of rights is a valid concern.

I am with you on the 100% positive proof untainted evidence issue.  

From the cited article:
Quote
All the factors contributed to the police’s interest in Bass as a suspect by 2013. But investigators apparently did not have enough evidence for a search warrant to compel a DNA sample from Bass. And his employer, Franz Bakery, would not voluntarily allow investigators to swab for a sample without a warrant or subpoena. The same went for information on his routes.

Yeah, he was in town when the horse was stolen and his buttsmell was still on the saddle, so he musta done it.  We'll string him up right after a fair trial.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:06:37 PM by 230RN »

T.O.M.

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 06:18:15 PM »
Hey, just to be clear, I am a strict constructionist as far as 4A and 5A issues go.  Expansion is a bad thing, IMHO.  That said, there are judges on both sides of the political spectrum that disagree with me.  And a lot of them set precedent.

I would like to see a transcript from a suppression hearing and see what all of the evidence is.  Seen too many articles where reporters have been wrong about facts, or biased and the slant shows through.

What I am curious about is how a court would address the issue of abandoning an item into a jointly used garbage can but in a restricted access location, like a workplace can.  Never researched that issue before.  On one hand, he threw the cup and can away. On the other hand, it was not yet accessible to the general public. Do we rule that he abandoned the items and as such gave up any expectation or privacy when it they hit the can, or do we rule that garbage cans outside of the home in a shared location maintain an expectation of privacy for all of those who use the cans.

As to why she grabbed the items, I don't think that will be a key issue here.  Looks like she was acting as an agent for law enforcement, so the 4A constraints on the officers would apply to her.
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230RN

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2018, 08:06:16 PM »
Sorry, I don't see the issue as a fine legal point as to whether the trash can was in "fair territory" or not.

I see it as a double attempt to circumvent the spelled-out rights of the suspect and the Company by a psuedo-cop (if you will).  Hence my term "black ops."

I'm not sure how the notion that they can put traps in sewer lines to obtain evidence fits in with this... except maybe that's "brown ops."

In other words, you can either get a search warrant issued upon probable cause particularly describing the items to search for or you can't.  If you can't, don't use moles to circumvent the intent of our protective Amendments.  

I'm sure there are actual judges who would disagree with me, and it is to be hoped that their attitudes toward these enshrined rights will be revealed and they will get to re-enter private practice.

Throw that non-evidence out.

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« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 08:24:29 PM by 230RN »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2018, 08:42:28 PM »
Didn't the article say she stepped up and volunteered to help the police?

My thinking is that if the Company denied access, for whatever reason (probably just liability), and the guy did not want to give a sample, the police should be stymied, and should not be using a "black ops" procedure to obtain evidence.


She volunteered to provide some data that the company declined to provide. If I understood the article correctly, one of the cops then called her back and strongly suggested (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that a DNA sample would be helpful.

Unfortunately, I have to agree that the evidence should have been suppressed.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2018, 08:52:36 PM »

What I am curious about is how a court would address the issue of abandoning an item into a jointly used garbage can but in a restricted access location, like a workplace can.  Never researched that issue before.  On one hand, he threw the cup and can away. On the other hand, it was not yet accessible to the general public. Do we rule that he abandoned the items and as such gave up any expectation or privacy when it they hit the can, or do we rule that garbage cans outside of the home in a shared location maintain an expectation of privacy for all of those who use the cans.


Having worked in an office environment much like this, I can offer my opinion. I spent several years in a construction field office. A "maid-for-a-day" cleaning service came in once a week to sweep and mop the floors, clean the toilet rooms, and take the trash bags outside to the dumpster. While obviously co-workers could rifle through the trash and retrieve anything I discarded, by the same token if I had second thoughts I could have gone back and retrieved something that I had discarded fairly easily while it was in the waste baskets or garbage cans inside the office. Once the trash was bagged and taken out to the dumpster, finding something I had discarded would have been orders of magnitude more difficult.

Plus, there are years of precedent that have established that, once your trash hits the curb, in public view, there is no longer an expectation of privacy so anything in the trash is fair game. The trash cans inside the office might perhaps be considered "quasi-private." Not open to public view, but obviously not under one person's control.

If the helpful co-worker had thought to grab the can and the cup on her own initiative, that might pass the 4th Amendment smell test. Because a cop planted the idea (and not very subtly), I don't think this case passes the smell test.
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230RN

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2018, 10:00:22 AM »
I still say the main issue is not whether or not the "evidence" was in fair territory.

The crux of the matter is that neither the suspect nor the Company nor the judge involved would allow  a search to be made or DNA samples taken.

Yet the police figured out a surreptitious and scurrilous way to circumvent the rights of the suspect and the Company and the wisdom of the judge by using a thinly-authorized shill to go in and obtain / steal / get the so-called evidence.

That's the point I was making, which trumps the question of whether or not the trash can was in public or private territory and therefore whether or not the suspect relinquished ownership or custody of the cup and can.

That "evidence" should be suppressed as having been obtained by violating the rights of the suspect.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 10:16:32 AM by 230RN »

MechAg94

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2018, 10:28:17 AM »
I tend to agree that the evidence should be thrown out.

As an extra question:  Could that evidence be used to justify a search warrant to get a clean sample or would that be as a result of the warrantless search? 
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MechAg94

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2018, 10:30:21 AM »
Looking at the article, it appears they never had any evidence that he was involved beyond simple proximity so I am not surprised they never could get a search warrant.  Seems kind of nuts to be harassing a coworker years later to obtain evidence.  In this case, it may be true, but if they were barking up the wrong tree, they just told his coworkers he was a murderer and may have screwed up his employment.  And then I wonder how many other suspects they harassed trying to track down all the leads. 

If the police came and asked me for a voluntary DNA sample, I think I would refuse also.  There are so many problems with DNA tests that you hear about.  I don't think I would do something like that without lining up my own test independently. 
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2018, 11:53:42 AM »
JD

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MillCreek

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2018, 11:58:06 AM »
So as the risk manager, I wonder if the employee got fired.  She would be perceived as acting as an agent of the company, and her actions certainly exposed the company to civil liability from the accused.  I would argue that she was acting outside the scope of her employment, and I therefore should not be held vicariously liable for her actions. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2018, 12:10:48 PM »
Do we really "know"?
https://gizmodo.com/when-bad-dna-tests-lead-to-false-convictions-1797915655
https://www.nij.gov/journals/279/Pages/wrongful-convictions-and-dna-exonerations.aspx
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11/investigates/police-destroyed-rapekits/case-files.html
I agree with you there.  A DNA test is evidence.  It should not be taken as ALL the evidence without a very careful look at how sample was obtained and processed, how the test was done, and what the rate of agreement.  I would also be interested in tests with independent labs.  Or at least I would want that if I were falsely accused.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2018, 12:36:28 PM »
I tend to agree that the evidence should be thrown out.

As an extra question:  Could that evidence be used to justify a search warrant to get a clean sample or would that be as a result of the warrantless search? 


If it is suppressed,  it's out for all purposes.
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230RN

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2018, 03:09:42 PM »
So as the risk manager, I wonder if the employee got fired.  She would be perceived as acting as an agent of the company, and her actions certainly exposed the company to civil liability from the accused.  I would argue that she was acting outside the scope of her employment, and I therefore should not be held vicariously liable for her actions.  

That had occurred to me, too.  Were I the employer (or a judge on that separate issue), I would think that she perceived herself as acting under the color of law.  As an employer, I would have a gentle water-cooler discussion with her on that basis, and forget it.  As a judge, I would bang my gavel in dismissal, but maybe* have a non-water-cooler discussion with the cops and prosecuters in chambers.

I might even have them read aloud, in unison, the Preamble to the Bill Of Rights, emphasizing the "to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers" clause.

Terry

* Depends on my chances of being re-elected or re-appointed.  =D
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 03:26:53 PM by 230RN »

griz

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2018, 11:18:16 AM »
Do we really "know"?
https://gizmodo.com/when-bad-dna-tests-lead-to-false-convictions-1797915655
https://www.nij.gov/journals/279/Pages/wrongful-convictions-and-dna-exonerations.aspx
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11/investigates/police-destroyed-rapekits/case-files.html

Yes, in this case I think we "know".  Of the three links you posted, the first is the only one that is what I would call a wrong DNA match, and that one seems to be about reckless prosecution using bad science.  They claimed one in a billion as "the gold standard", but went with a test that was worse than that.  The case that's the topic of the thread is claiming an error of something in the one in quadrillion range.  I am no expert in DNA but that sure sounds like certainty to me.  The second link is about using DNA to exonerate wrongly convicted people,  If anything that speaks to the reliability of DNA testing.  The third link seems to be about debatable policing, not the dependability of DNA testing.  Yes people have been wrongly convicted, and our judicial system has a bias of getting convictions over the finding of truth.  But If real DNA testing is not to trusted then why do we give any weight to fingerprint evidence or eye witness testimony, both of which have had more false positives than DNA?


This case is about the limits of the 4th amendment, not really DNA testing.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2018, 12:49:14 PM »

This case is about the limits of the 4th amendment, not really DNA testing.

Correct. The question in this case isn't about whether the DNA match is accurate, but whether or not the police and the prosecution even had a right to the DNA sample used to make the match.
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230RN

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2018, 01:00:08 PM »
^,^^

I thought I said all that already, more than once. =D

Reply #11:
Quote
The crux of the matter is that neither the suspect nor the Company nor the judge involved would allow  a search to be made or DNA samples taken.

Yet the police figured out a surreptitious and scurrilous way to circumvent the rights of the suspect and the Company and the wisdom of the judge by using a thinly-authorized shill to go in and obtain / steal / get the so-called evidence.

I even used a bigger font to emphasize the point.

Oh, what the hell, nobody reads my stuff anyhow. =(

Terry <snif>, 230RN
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 01:14:23 PM by 230RN »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2018, 01:34:18 PM »

Oh, what the hell, nobody reads my stuff anyhow. =(

Terry <snif>, 230RN

Sure we do. If we didn't read it, how could we misquote and misconstrue it?
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zxcvbob

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2018, 02:19:14 PM »
IMHO, the suspect had abandoned the evidence, but the company had not (yet), and they are the ones who needed the warrant.  A warrant was not obtained; the search was invalid.  The shill was acting as an agent of the police, not an agent of the company.
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230RN

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Re: Interesting 4th Amendment case.
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2018, 06:42:36 PM »
I was thinking the same thing.  Even trying as hard as you can to be unbiased, there is that little voice in your head that says "but now I KNOW" he killed somebody".

That's the other thing that really bothers me.  Where are you now going to find a jury without "that little voice in your head," or co-workers or future employers without "that little voice in your head?"