Author Topic: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out  (Read 9150 times)

MechAg94

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2018, 10:23:20 AM »
I think Mattis wants to see us out of Syria as well. With only an armchair analyst guess, there must be something behind the scenes that had Mattis worried from the strategic perspective regarding Trump simply announcing, "We're done, ISIS is finished". Much like when Obama said the "JV Team" was finished. From the news at least, it sounds like Mattis was very worried, to the point of pretty much just showing up at the White House for one last plea.

There are many ways to pull back. We saw that Obama did it wrong. My guess is that Mattis didn't want Trump repeating that error.

On the tangent, it has been kinda funny to watch both the Obama cheerleaders and the Trump cheerleaders pretty much defending or criticizing the opposite of what they were doing when "the other guy" did it. Suddenly Dem leadership are all acting like Mattis is their bestest buddy, and ISIS is a great danger and we need our troops in the ME. I've also seen way too many conservatives saying some pretty stupid things about Mattis in the "good riddance" sense (not so much in Congress, but more the "conservative pundits").

The last thing I want to see with Trump (or any President) is to be surrounded by yes men. I was pretty impressed with Trump's original cabinet choices and what looked like him surrounding himself with experts that he would listen to. Sadly, I'm starting to see that go in the opposite direction. He still does have around a year to turn that back around though.

I don't mind Trump doing the "I know more than anyone else" stuff with economic issues. In many ways, he has shown himself to be right. I'm scared about him doing that with national security issues. I'm very curious about who gave him information and advice, and what that was, that would cause him to blow off Mattis.
The problem with Obama is he was the one stirring it up and supplying ISIS with weapons. 

I would be curious to know what is so important about Syria or the rest and why we should not pull out.  However, if we stayed there and got out of Afghanistan, I would take that trade. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2018, 10:33:03 AM »
It's like Trump has gone full 'tard this week.  Syria, caving in on the CR/Border Wall, firing Mattis.  He's taken his stupid pills for sure...
I will apologize ahead of time if I am nitpicking your post too much: 

Did Trump cave on the border wall?  I saw headlines assuming that, but it hasn't happened.  The Congressional Republicans appear to have done so, especially lame duck Paul Ryan.  

Did Trump fire Mattis or did he just decide he was done?  I didn't hear it either way.  I like Mattis, but I couldn't tell from the parts of his resignation letter I heard exactly why he was leaving. 

What is stupid about his saying we should pull out of Syria?  IMO, all the wrong people want us to be there and that bothers me.  

I don't think Trump is perfect, but I am willing to let things play out and see what happens.  He is still better than most of the alternatives.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 10:42:22 AM »
What is stupid about his saying we should pull out of Syria?  IMO, all the wrong people want us to be there and that bothers me.  

Not to jump in for Scout, but I think most people that have concerns, including Mattis, are not concerned about pulling out of Syria, in fact want to. The question is how we pull out. Mattis made it clear in his resignation letter that he doesn't want to police the world, which includes Syria.

That he was concerned enough about this that it was his last straw in disagreements with the President indicates to me there are strategically significant issues outside of the public eye that the President is blowing off.
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Scout26

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2018, 10:42:41 AM »
If it's just pulling out of Syria, it's probably an okay call.  However, Mattis leaving leads me to believe that we weren't quite done killing ISIS.  I'm actually fine if we pull back to Iraq, and help defend the Kurds there.  I always thought that chasing ISIS into Syria was mission creep, but understand they they needed to hunted down to the last fighter.  

There was no way I would support the never ending mission in Syria.  It's bad enough that we are doing that in Iraq and A-stan.  I fully believe in the Mattis Doctrine. Kill them, and keep killing them until they get tired of the killing.

However, I go and point back to what I said on the afternoon of 9/11/2001.   "The last time we went up against an enemy that was willing to commit suicide to kill Americans, we had to drop two nukes to get them to stop."
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MechAg94

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2018, 10:53:10 AM »
I can't disagree with that.  Some enemies won't stop until you kill them and everyone around them and we haven't been willing to do that over there. 

The other part I back off on is I think Obama helped create the situation by supplying "rebels" in Syria and toppling govts in Lybia and Egypt.  We may have some responsibility for cleaning things up. 

I have some faith in Trump that he will see that job is done properly.  I don't have much faith in those that might follow him so I hope he gets it wrapped up.  I guess part that means finding a capable replacement.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ron

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2018, 11:15:15 AM »
If the standard is killing our enemies then we’ll never leave the Middle East until we commit genocide against most of the region.

Maybe the neocons can rustle up an EU military. Then they can continue to fight never ending wars in the Middle East for never clearly stated reasons with never clearly stated objectives.

Mattis was a great soldier who was effective because he is a true believer in the neo-con mission that he was helping implement. He did what he was asked to do enthusiastically because he agreed.

He wants out of the Middle East, he is against world policing, he is against transexuals serving and women in point of the spear combat roles. At least that is what I’ve heard. I haven’t seen much enthusiasm or effectiveness in any of those areas.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 11:28:40 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

TommyGunn

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2018, 11:30:49 AM »
If it's just pulling out of Syria, it's probably an okay call.  However, Mattis leaving leads me to believe that we weren't quite done killing ISIS.  I'm actually fine if we pull back to Iraq, and help defend the Kurds there.  I always thought that chasing ISIS into Syria was mission creep, but understand they they needed to hunted down to the last fighter.  

There was no way I would support the never ending mission in Syria.  It's bad enough that we are doing that in Iraq and A-stan.  I fully believe in the Mattis Doctrine. Kill them, and keep killing them until they get tired of the killing.

However, I go and point back to what I said on the afternoon of 9/11/2001.   "The last time we went up against an enemy that was willing to commit suicide to kill Americans, we had to drop two nukes to get them to stop."

There was a time I thought it would have been a good idea to nuke ToraBora........
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Scout26

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2018, 11:59:27 AM »
If the standard is killing our enemies then we’ll never leave the Middle East until we commit genocide against most of the region.

Maybe the neocons can rustle up an EU military. Then they can continue to fight never ending wars in the Middle East for never clearly stated reasons with never clearly stated objectives.

Mattis was a great soldier who was effective because he is a true believer in the neo-con mission that he was helping implement. He did what he was asked to do enthusiastically because he agreed.

He wants out of the Middle East, he is against world policing, he is against transexuals serving and women in point of the spear combat roles. At least that is what I’ve heard. I haven’t seen much enthusiasm or effectiveness in any of those areas.


Mattis is a Marine.  I dont; think he's a believer in as you call it "the neo-con mission".    He does understand that we may not be done killing ISIS, that's his disagreement with Trump.  I heard that ISIS number anywhere from 1,000 to 20,000 fighters left.    What he does understand is civilian control of the military.  At his level, he does get to give advice to the CINC, but if the CINC doesn't take his advice, then he can either 1) Say "Yes, Sir", and carry out those orders to the best of his ability, or 2) Resign.

And yes, he wants us out of the ME, but he has his reasons for believing that we are not to the point of pulling out.    And regarding the women and trans-sexuals, those genies are already out of the bottle, not until those experiments are proven failures on the battlefield and the price paid in blood will we learn.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

lee n. field

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2018, 12:26:16 PM »
The problem with Obama is he was the one stirring it up and supplying ISIS with weapons. 

I would be curious to know what is so important about Syria or the rest and why we should not pull out.  However, if we stayed there and got out of Afghanistan, I would take that trade. 

proximity to Israel, which means there will always be a a fraction/fractions favoring it.  that and the oil supply thing.
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Ron

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2018, 12:27:24 PM »
I’m open to alternative points of view.

This guy has a completely different spin.

https://quodverum.com/2018/12/355/james-mattis-to-resign-as-secretary-of-defense.html
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Ron

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2018, 01:04:14 PM »
Mattis is a Marine.  I dont; think he's a believer in as you call it "the neo-con mission".    He does understand that we may not be done killing ISIS, that's his disagreement with Trump.  I heard that ISIS number anywhere from 1,000 to 20,000 fighters left.    What he does understand is civilian control of the military.  At his level, he does get to give advice to the CINC, but if the CINC doesn't take his advice, then he can either 1) Say "Yes, Sir", and carry out those orders to the best of his ability, or 2) Resign.

And yes, he wants us out of the ME, but he has his reasons for believing that we are not to the point of pulling out.    And regarding the women and trans-sexuals, those genies are already out of the bottle, not until those experiments are proven failures on the battlefield and the price paid in blood will we learn.

Neo-con mission = Use the US military to become the primary political and military influence in the Levant.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2018, 01:12:14 PM »
I don't have big problem with killing/destroying ISIS, but I see that as simply an offshoot of general Islamic extremism.  I don't think we will be able to eradicate that. 

IMO, the locals and others who depend on Middle East oil need to keep control of those radicals.  I would like the US to get to a point where we can exercise foreign policy without sending troops everywhere for indeterminate periods of time. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

bedlamite

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2018, 01:30:06 PM »
I don't have big problem with killing/destroying ISIS, but I see that as simply an offshoot of general Islamic extremism.  I don't think we will be able to eradicate that. 


This. There will likely always be some kind of islamic extremist group. I would like them to be fighting either Russia, each other, or some two-bit dictator in the sandbox instead of us.

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Scout26

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2018, 03:04:45 PM »
Neo-con mission = Use the US military to become the primary political and military influence in the Levant.

Again, he didn't create the mission, he inherited the wars.   He wanted to do what our military is supposed to do.  Win wars.  And he did that.   If we are not needed in Syria (notice again, no one is talking about Iraq, but Syria.  Which is a sovereign nation, that we in essence, invaded, then we need to let the Syrians finish the fight on their soil.  I think that ISIS has been beaten down enough for the Syrians and the Russian (and Iranian) allies to finish the job.  Yes, I'm not happy about Russia and Iran being in Syria, but unless we are going to the Obama/Hillary doctrine and try to overthrow Assad, then there's not much we can do. \

Pull back to Iraq, protect the Kurds there, and let Syria sort itself out.  If ISIS rears it ugly head again, then go all Mattis on them...again.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2018, 07:57:12 PM »
This might belong in a separate thread, but I think I'll drop it in here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64GHrP3bCWk

Quote
Trump will test to the fullest the unlimited powers given him by the Constitution to command the American military forces as their Commander In Chief. To do so, he will dismiss from service any officer, any cabinet member, any staffer who opposes his order to secure the Mexican border. Will he find any who are willing to carry out his orders, even in defiance of both Congress and the Judiciary, the two branches of government that for many decades had been unconstitutionally usurping the powers of the Executive? Will the command structure of the American military withstand the enormous pressures that it will face in the upcoming days and weeks and months? Nobody knows. One things is clear, however: if a properly elected Commander In Chief cannot order his military to secure the country’s borders against invasion, America as an independent political entity in which the people are sovereign via a system of carefully crafted checks and balances in a constitutionally established federal structure of governance is finished.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Andiron

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 08:04:34 PM »
Again, he didn't create the mission, he inherited the wars.   He wanted to do what our military is supposed to do.  Win wars.  And he did that.   If we are not needed in Syria (notice again, no one is talking about Iraq, but Syria.  Which is a sovereign nation, that we in essence, invaded, then we need to let the Syrians finish the fight on their soil.  I think that ISIS has been beaten down enough for the Syrians and the Russian (and Iranian) allies to finish the job.  Yes, I'm not happy about Russia and Iran being in Syria, but unless we are going to the Obama/Hillary doctrine and try to overthrow Assad, then there's not much we can do. \

Pull back to Iraq, protect the Kurds there, and let Syria sort itself out.  If ISIS rears it ugly head again, then go all Mattis on them...again.

Kobayashi Maru for Mattis. 

Agreed with your assessment.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2018, 10:50:11 AM »
I really like the Monk.  But I disagree with him on this one.  Pulling out of shithole middle eastern countries is the right thing to do.
We do not to be in forever war. 
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Pb

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2018, 12:58:48 PM »


He wants out of the Middle East, he is against world policing, he is against transexuals serving and women in point of the spear combat roles. At least that is what I’ve heard. I haven’t seen much enthusiasm or effectiveness in any of those areas.


I am not aware Mattis did anything at all to get women out of the infantry.  They are still there.

Ron

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2018, 01:41:10 PM »
I am not aware Mattis did anything at all to get women out of the infantry.  They are still there.

Pretty sure he did nothing about any of the things I mentioned.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Pb

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2018, 02:45:16 PM »
Pretty sure he did nothing about any of the things I mentioned.
Yeah, you right Ron.  I misread your post.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2018, 05:37:15 PM »
Oh noes the trannies in uniformz!!!!  ;/
JD

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dogmush

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2018, 08:00:54 PM »
https://youtu.be/iOSb6xI_hl8?t=539

Nick Palmisciano from Ranger Up took some time at the end of this weeks Bad News Network to talk about this.

Like many of you, I'm not a fan of a forever war in the mid east. That said, we mucked up quite a bit in the mid-east and North Africa. I've spent a fair bit of time in that part of the world,and know quite a few people there including some Kurds who are likely in the cross hairs of the coming cleansing.  For better or worse, the US had a hand in making the Syrian Civil War as bloody as it ended up being, and we told some folks that we would be there to back them up, and now we wont be, and folks are going to die. There's not all that many folks on the Arabian Peninsula that have proven to be our friends, and we are in the process of screwing a bunch of them over pretty hard.

I don't claim to be a Foreign Policy wonk, but I do know General Mattis, and if he thinks that this particular way of ending our involvement in the Syrian Civil War is a huge mistake, I trust his judgement.  He's earned that.

lee n. field

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2018, 09:38:10 PM »
Quote
and we told some folks that we would be there to back them up, and now we wont be, and folks are going to die.

so what else is new?
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MechAg94

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2018, 11:30:49 AM »
A comment I heard yesterday was Trump kept asking for a plan/timeline for getting out of Syria and kept getting plans delivered to him that pretty much had us staying indefinitely.  We will see what comes out on this. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Holy Hell! Mattis is Out
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2018, 11:42:15 AM »
https://youtu.be/iOSb6xI_hl8?t=539

Nick Palmisciano from Ranger Up took some time at the end of this weeks Bad News Network to talk about this.

Like many of you, I'm not a fan of a forever war in the mid east. That said, we mucked up quite a bit in the mid-east and North Africa. I've spent a fair bit of time in that part of the world,and know quite a few people there including some Kurds who are likely in the cross hairs of the coming cleansing.  For better or worse, the US had a hand in making the Syrian Civil War as bloody as it ended up being, and we told some folks that we would be there to back them up, and now we wont be, and folks are going to die. There's not all that many folks on the Arabian Peninsula that have proven to be our friends, and we are in the process of screwing a bunch of them over pretty hard.

I don't claim to be a Foreign Policy wonk, but I do know General Mattis, and if he thinks that this particular way of ending our involvement in the Syrian Civil War is a huge mistake, I trust his judgement.  He's earned that.
People shouldn't be making promises they have no power to keep.  Presidents should not change their foreign policy just because someone down the chain made a promise. 

If we don't want the US to be the World Police then they shouldn't be.  We should not abandon that idea just because bad things might happen somewhere.  There will always be temptations to get involved and political factions who push for it. 

And if we are responsible for some of the instability in the Middle East, the answer to that is not a permanent mission there. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge