Author Topic: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect  (Read 18509 times)

Ben

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2019, 02:42:39 PM »
Bull.  The GOP had 2 years to get the wall built.  There's more than enough blame to go around.

I'm talking about refusing to attend this meeting. Hence, "This particular thing". :)
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2019, 02:46:26 PM »
I'm talking about refusing to attend this meeting. Hence, "This particular thing". :)
I big part does sit with them. But as said, the GOP and Trump had two years to do this and choose not to. The only reason it's a thing is because they sat around with their thumbs up their ass.

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MikeB

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2019, 02:47:32 PM »
Bull.  The GOP had 2 years to get the wall built.  There's more than enough blame to go around.

No they didn’t and you know that. They didn’t have 60 votes in the Senate.

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2019, 02:47:59 PM »
I'm talking about refusing to attend this meeting. Hence, "This particular thing". :)

Ah.

IMHO the Dems have the stronger position here.  The congress and senate passed spending bills before the shutdown, and before the Dems took office, that the President veto'd.  Why should they negotiate?  
The President's only out at this point is to declare the state of emergency, have the DoD start building the wall, and see what happens in court.
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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2019, 02:50:59 PM »
No they didn’t and you know that. They didn’t have 60 votes in the Senate.

No, they didn't have the balls to exercise the nuclear option.
Conversely, I'd bet if they nutted up they could get a veto proof majority in both houses for a budget and end this stalemate.
Plenty of blame to float around.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2019, 03:37:28 PM »
Bull.  The GOP had 2 years to get the wall built.  There's more than enough blame to go around.

No elected official really wants the wall, they all want cheap exploitable labor.
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MechAg94

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2019, 03:57:37 PM »
No, they didn't have the balls to exercise the nuclear option.
Conversely, I'd bet if they nutted up they could get a veto proof majority in both houses for a budget and end this stalemate.
Plenty of blame to float around.
No, they would not have done that.  I don't think Paul Ryan wanted a wall or any sort of immigration reform.  And when it came down to it, the spending bill they passed in early 2018 had all sort of extra spending and anti-wall language in it to get it past the 60 vote threshold in the Senate.  One of the biggest problem is people think Republicans are all behind Trump's agenda when they should know dang well they were not. 

As for the nuclear option, I don't think that is a great idea.  A bunch of people were ridiculing the former Democrat Senate Majority leader for getting rid of that allowing Kavanah to be confirmed.  I really don't want the Democrats having an easy road to pass legislation if they get a majority in the future.  Especially when I am not sure what Republicans would actually pass. 


IMO, it is supposed to be hard to pass new legislation and we should not wipe that out just because it is convenient to get what we want.
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DittoHead

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2019, 04:07:29 PM »
I really don't want the Democrats having an easy road to pass legislation if they get a majority in the future.

Exactly.
"Obstructionism" is a far more important tool for conservatives than it is for liberals. Weakening those tools helps Democrats more in the long run.
Same thing applies to the "National Emergency" route to bypass congress.
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MechAg94

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2019, 04:24:26 PM »
Exactly.
"Obstructionism" is a far more important tool for conservatives than it is for liberals. Weakening those tools helps Democrats more in the long run.
Same thing applies to the "National Emergency" route to bypass congress.
IMO, the "national emergency" stuff doesn't even sound constitutional. 
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MikeB

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2019, 05:25:35 PM »
IMO, the "national emergency" stuff doesn't even sound constitutional. 

It was passed as a bill in maybe ‘74 or ‘76 something like that. I don’t particularly like it, but passed by Congress and signed by President so unfortunately almost certainly constitutional.

Now as for the wall, one of the federal governments only enumerated duties in the constitution is protecting the borders as long as we have laws saying how people may immigrate they need to follow those laws. Walls or physical barriers work to slow the flow of people crossing illegally. Obviously not by themselves, but they do work. Unless Dems or Republicans want to offer a serious option and no an electronic fence isn’t serious they need to buck up and build the damn wall already. Or just change the law and let everyone in. One or the other.

MechAg94

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2019, 10:42:56 PM »
It was passed as a bill in maybe ‘74 or ‘76 something like that. I don’t particularly like it, but passed by Congress and signed by President so unfortunately almost certainly constitutional.

Now as for the wall, one of the federal governments only enumerated duties in the constitution is protecting the borders as long as we have laws saying how people may immigrate they need to follow those laws. Walls or physical barriers work to slow the flow of people crossing illegally. Obviously not by themselves, but they do work. Unless Dems or Republicans want to offer a serious option and no an electronic fence isn’t serious they need to buck up and build the damn wall already. Or just change the law and let everyone in. One or the other.
I just don't think it is constitutional for Congress to gift the President more powers just with a new law. 

However, no one seems to worry about limited Govt anymore.  Getting to the point we might as well start electing dictators.
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fifth_column

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2019, 10:33:05 AM »
I read an interesting article yesterday about the huge amount of eminent domain seizures that would be necessary in order to build along the entire border.  I can't find it at the moment . . . . .
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MechAg94

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2019, 12:32:26 PM »
I read an interesting article yesterday about the huge amount of eminent domain seizures that would be necessary in order to build along the entire border.  I can't find it at the moment . . . . .
I have heard that could be an issue also.  I also heard there were a few leftists who bought land on the border for the purpose to trying to tie it up in court.
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HankB

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2019, 01:03:06 PM »
I read an interesting article yesterday about the huge amount of eminent domain seizures that would be necessary in order to build along the entire border.  I can't find it at the moment . . . . .
I read that in some cases, plans are to build the wall not ON the border, but WELL INSIDE our border. Up to half a mile or more INSIDE our border.  :facepalm:
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JD

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Ben

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2019, 02:15:12 PM »
Yeah, this is where the money part starts to get more interesting. Short partial shutdowns don't usually end up having any real dollar cost.

When you've gone this long, you start getting backlogs that have to be made up for. Also, I guarantee you the National Park Service will get at least a $25 million plus up in the 2020 budget to pay for damage, repairs, extra maintenance, etc. incurred from slobs in all the parks we've been reading about. As one example. I'm sure there are a bunch of agencies that will get extra budget dough (i.e., taxpayer dollars) to cover things, whether real or made up, from the extended shutdown.

One small interesting thing I noted, and I don't know if correlation = causation, is that I sent in my 4th quarter estimated taxes to the IRS over two weeks ago, and the check still hasn't cleared. That usually only takes a few days from when I drop it in the mail. What will be interesting is if they are in fact holding off on processing estimated taxes and then I find myself with a late penalty because the taxes were not processed before the tax deadline (15JAN).
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2019, 02:28:25 PM »
Yeah, this is where the money part starts to get more interesting. Short partial shutdowns don't usually end up having any real dollar cost.

When you've gone this long, you start getting backlogs that have to be made up for. Also, I guarantee you the National Park Service will get at least a $25 million plus up in the 2020 budget to pay for damage, repairs, extra maintenance, etc. incurred from slobs in all the parks we've been reading about. As one example. I'm sure there are a bunch of agencies that will get extra budget dough (i.e., taxpayer dollars) to cover things, whether real or made up, from the extended shutdown.

One small interesting thing I noted, and I don't know if correlation = causation, is that I sent in my 4th quarter estimated taxes to the IRS over two weeks ago, and the check still hasn't cleared. That usually only takes a few days from when I drop it in the mail. What will be interesting is if they are in fact holding off on processing estimated taxes and then I find myself with a late penalty because the taxes were not processed before the tax deadline (15JAN).

Even a short one does cost money, because furloughed workers are always back paid, but work isn't done, resulting in degradation of service to the taxpayer plus overtime usage to catch up.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Ben

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2019, 02:32:28 PM »
Even a short one does cost money, because furloughed workers are always back paid, but work isn't done, resulting in degradation of service to the taxpayer plus overtime usage to catch up.

That's true, though I think the overtime thing varies. I wasn't allowed overtime at my level except for emergency response, but certainly used some comp time to catch up.
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MechAg94

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2019, 02:52:04 PM »
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/15/laura-loomer-sets-up-illegal-immigrant-sanctuary-o/
Activist Laura Loomer sets up illegal immigrant 'sanctuary' on Nancy Pelosi's lawn
 =D

Quote
Ms. Loomer and her “amigos” reportedly from Mexico and Guatemala are seen in the video jumping over a small wall at Mrs. Pelosi’s Napa home and setting up a white tent on the lawn painted with the word “immorality.”

“Nancy is a very rich Democrat, and she believes that everyone is welcome here, and sanctuary is a human right,” Ms. Loomer said in the video.
She could at least have picked up 3 amigos. 
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #119 on: January 16, 2019, 03:13:58 PM »
No elected official really wants the wall, they all want cheap exploitable labor.

Not just the labor, but the Social Security fraud to pad that particular ponzi scheme.  Even if the guy claims exempt, there's still the employer portion that goes to the IRS under the fraudulent SS number.
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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2019, 04:28:36 PM »
^^^I have read elsewhere that illegals contribute millions of dollars per year to Social Security that will never be collected as benefits by them. 
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fifth_column

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #121 on: January 16, 2019, 04:29:51 PM »
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/15/laura-loomer-sets-up-illegal-immigrant-sanctuary-o/
Activist Laura Loomer sets up illegal immigrant 'sanctuary' on Nancy Pelosi's lawn
 =D
She could at least have picked up 3 amigos. 

One could say this protest actually proves the dem adage that "walls don't work . . . ."
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MikeB

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #122 on: January 16, 2019, 05:34:48 PM »
^^^I have read elsewhere that illegals contribute millions of dollars per year to Social Security that will never be collected as benefits by them. 

Yeah. I’ve read that too, but at the same time SS is supposed to be running out of money so is it really that much?

It wasn’t a perfect solution, but GW Bush to be fair as much as I disliked him did try to push for real fixes to SS. Some of the you split between your own private SS account and the Public Kitty May have worked to some extent. Not perfect, but would have been a step in the right direction.

Not to derail the thread too much, but he also tried to address the housing loan kerfuffle that spurred the recession and the Dems and Media all poopood his warnings then blamed him for the recession when what he said came true. Lest we forget he was also stupid, shrub, and BushHitler. None of this stuff with Trump is really new. Although he was only BushHitler not literally Hitler, so I guess that is new.

Scout26

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2019, 12:00:09 AM »
Not just the labor, but the Social Security fraud to pad that particular ponzi scheme.  Even if the guy claims exempt, there's still the employer portion that goes to the IRS under the fraudulent SS number.

"Exempt" only applies to income taxes.  You still get nailed on the 6.2% FICA (SS) and 1.45% Medicare employee portions.   There's not getting out of those.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Partial Gov Shut Down in Effect
« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2019, 08:45:40 AM »
Yeah. I’ve read that too, but at the same time SS is supposed to be running out of money so is it really that much?

It wasn’t a perfect solution, but GW Bush to be fair as much as I disliked him did try to push for real fixes to SS. Some of the you split between your own private SS account and the Public Kitty May have worked to some extent. Not perfect, but would have been a step in the right direction.

Not to derail the thread too much, but he also tried to address the housing loan kerfuffle that spurred the recession and the Dems and Media all poopood his warnings then blamed him for the recession when what he said came true. Lest we forget he was also stupid, shrub, and BushHitler. None of this stuff with Trump is really new. Although he was only BushHitler not literally Hitler, so I guess that is new.

There's still a lot of "you're not smart enough to manage your own money" in this article, but it talks about Galveston County's retirement
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/us/how-privatized-social-security-works-in-galveston.html
It's wildly successful.  County employees there retire in much better shape than most of America.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”