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Author Topic: EMS agencies carrying weapons at work  (Read 1112 times)
MillCreek
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« on: February 05, 2019, 07:40:39 PM »

https://www.jems.com/articles/2019/01/pro-bono-guns-at-work-laws-raise-legal-issues-for-ems-agencies.html

This issue has come up periodically over the years I have been involved with EMS. Most agencies and personnel are against it, consistent with the general prohibition and opinions elsewhere in healthcare. 

About the only time I have ever seen this concept in real life is some sort of medic or EMS personnel attached to, or part of, a SWAT or other special operations police team. 
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BobR
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 08:50:41 PM »

While officially prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon when I worked the Rez and a couple of inner city Trauma centers I carried a gun and so did a few docs and other nurses. I doubt there was much time in a 24 hour period there wasn't one or two armed medical personnel in  the place. I have seen EMS carry also. We all did it knowing it would cost us our job if discovered. That was a price I was willing to pay if needed. I think they should be able to carry if able to legally and if they want to without the blessing of their overlords.

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BTR
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 06:06:55 AM »

EMS folks sure need to carry guns.  What a job.
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Ron
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 06:16:52 AM »

Itĺs not 1950ĺs America out there anymore.

Itĺs a drugged up, drunken violent America with a substantial dose of third world violence.

You know, freeer and more diverse. Itĺs a sign of our strength.
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charby
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 06:31:07 AM »

Itĺs not 1950ĺs America out there anymore.

Itĺs a drugged up, drunken violent America with a substantial dose of third world violence.

You know, freeer and more diverse. Itĺs a sign of our strength.

I have no problem with EMS personal being armed, just because you don't know where every call is going to take you, but...

You can Google this, but violent crime rate is almost down to the late 1950's levels.

Also regarding 3rd world violence, from CBS on the Fact check of the SOTU. (for the most part Trump was fairly accurate in most of his address)

Quote
Studies say that undocumented immigrants are less likely to commit violent crimes than American-born citizens. A study conducted by the libertarian Cato Institute found that in Texas the murder arrest rate for native-born Americans was "about 46 percent higher than the illegal immigrant homicide rate," according to a June 2018 research note. Another study, by researchers at the University of Wisconsin, found that "increased concentrations of undocumented immigrants are associated with statistically significant decreases in violent crime."
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MechAg94
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 06:38:45 AM »

I might be curious to dig into those numbers.  I have heard elsewhere that illegal immigrants are more likely to be criminals by a good percentage.  It was only including legal immigrants that they look more law abiding. 
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charby
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 06:40:45 AM »

I might be curious to dig into those numbers.  I have heard elsewhere that illegal immigrants are more likely to be criminals by a good percentage.  It was only including legal immigrants that they look more law abiding. 

It says violent, but they are already criminals by being illegal immigrants.
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Ron
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 06:46:40 AM »

I have no problem with EMS personal being armed, just because you don't know where every call is going to take you, but...

You can Google this, but violent crime rate is almost down to the late 1950's levels.

Also regarding 3rd world violence, from CBS on the Fact check of the SOTU. (for the most part Trump was fairly accurate in most of his address)


We also have a lot of people in prison, many of whom arenĺt even citizens.

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charby
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 06:48:19 AM »

We also have a lot of people in prison, many of whom arenĺt even citizens.



yea so and your point is?

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_citizenship.jsp

80% are US citizens, I'm going to assume that this is federal prison stats. I'm also willing to be bet much of that % from Mexico are people who could not afford a decent private defense attorney.
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makattak
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 06:52:31 AM »

Also regarding 3rd world violence, from CBS on the Fact check of the SOTU. (for the most part Trump was fairly accurate in most of his address)


I'm unsurprised to find his math is bad.

First, he compares murder arrests for illegal aliens to total murders. Now, I don't have time to look up the numbers to correct his math, but I'm fairly certain there is a large number of unsolved murders that go without arrests.

Secondly, he's also comparing arrests of citizens to arrests of illegal immigrants. Again, as I recall, illegal aliens have a tendency to leave the scene of a crime (hit and run, for example) and the police are far less likely to be able apprehend people who have a large cohort of allies who will help them "in the shadows."

Further, we have no idea the number of illegal aliens in the country, so his estimations of their crime rate are already suspect. (And I note the linked data does not provide his figures for claiming the rates he has.)

Additionally, he uses Texas, which may not be indicative of the nation as a whole as Texas is willing to work with the immigration authorities to deport criminal aliens. It would be interesting to compare numbers where the illegal aliens do not also have to fear deportation, such as California.

Put simply, Cato's numbers are suspect.
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 06:54:19 AM »

yea so and your point is?

There doesnĺt seem to be a lack of violent criminals and the open border isnĺt helping.

Over 20% of the prison population is illegal aliens.

The amount of resources needed to maintain a 1950 level of safety is insane.

Build the wall and send the illegals home.
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charby
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 07:26:21 AM »

There doesnĺt seem to be a lack of violent criminals and the open border isnĺt helping.

Over 20% of the prison population is illegal aliens.

The amount of resources needed to maintain a 1950 level of safety is insane.

Build the wall and send the illegals home.

Wall won't do anything, most illegal aliens/immigrants/workers are folks who over stay their visa.

Wall isn't going to happen either, too many people on both sides of the aisle are supported by folks who want cheap exploitable labor.

If you want to stop the flow of the folks coming into the country, push for a raise in wages and lower government entitlements so they able bodies native born and legal citizens will take those jobs that the illegals/visa folks take.

Also expect your dollar to go a lot less further because a living wage w/benefits is going to need to be paid for painting, concrete, drywall, roofing, agriculture, etc. workers.


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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 07:35:03 AM »


Also expect your dollar to go a lot less further because a living wage w/benefits is going to need to be paid for painting, concrete, drywall, roofing, agriculture, etc. workers.

All things that will be done by robots with a couple of human supervisors/engineers withing 20 years. They had better learn to code. Smiley
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Ron
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 07:42:59 AM »

Wall won't do anything, most illegal aliens/immigrants/workers are folks who over stay their visa.

Wall isn't going to happen either, too many people on both sides of the aisle are supported by folks who want cheap exploitable labor.

If you want to stop the flow of the folks coming into the country, push for a raise in wages and lower government entitlements so they able bodies native born and legal citizens will take those jobs that the illegals/visa folks take.

Also expect your dollar to go a lot less further because a living wage w/benefits is going to need to be paid for painting, concrete, drywall, roofing, agriculture, etc. workers.

Weĺre getting the push for a raise in wages by attempting to stop illegal immigration and tightening the legal visa process.

If you stop importing non-American cheap labor, wages will rise.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 07:47:07 AM »

Wall won't do anything, most illegal aliens/immigrants/workers are folks who over stay their visa.

Wall isn't going to happen either, too many people on both sides of the aisle are supported by folks who want cheap exploitable labor.

If you want to stop the flow of the folks coming into the country, push for a raise in wages and lower government entitlements so they able bodies native born and legal citizens will take those jobs that the illegals/visa folks take.

Also expect your dollar to go a lot less further because a living wage w/benefits is going to need to be paid for painting, concrete, drywall, roofing, agriculture, etc. workers.



Costs of most stuff won't change that much.  Some labor intensive jobs might be costly, but IMO they already are.  The free market comes up with solutions if allowed to.  Depending on an illegal source of cheap labor is not good in the long run.  

The Wall will accomplish something if done.  There are already walls in selected locations and from all reports they do help.  And from what I have heard, it is unlikely Trump will get enough funding in the short term to put a wall across the entire border, just strategically important areas in addition to what is already there.  Of course, it would be even better if Congress would agree to stop giving welfare, food stamps, unemployment, and tax credits to illegals, but that is less likely than the wall.

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Ron
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 07:50:26 AM »

Cĺmon Charby, whereĺs that American ôcan do!ö spirit?

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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 08:01:28 AM »

Wall won't do anything, most illegal aliens/immigrants/workers are folks who over stay their visa.

Wall isn't going to happen either, too many people on both sides of the aisle are supported by folks who want cheap exploitable labor.

If you want to stop the flow of the folks coming into the country, push for a raise in wages and lower government entitlements so they able bodies native born and legal citizens will take those jobs that the illegals/visa folks take.

Also expect your dollar to go a lot less further because a living wage w/benefits is going to need to be paid for painting, concrete, drywall, roofing, agriculture, etc. workers.


Push for a raise in wages, eh? Wouldn't that entail, ya know, advocating for fewer illegal aliens, and fewer immigrants?
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TommyGunn
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2019, 08:04:02 AM »

I have no problem with EMS personal being armed, just because you don't know where every call is going to take you, but...

You can Google this, but violent crime rate is almost down to the late 1950's levels.

Also regarding 3rd world violence, from CBS on the Fact check of the SOTU. (for the most part Trump was fairly accurate in most of his address)


The average immigrant may pose less of a threat than natives,  but this is likely compensated for by the inordinate violence of the MS-13  gangmembers.  

It appears that illegals murder @2,000 people in America annually,  which is maybe about 5% of murder victims.  That's still a substantial number.  

The direct violence caused by illegals is hardly the only issue.
Our border facilities are overburdened and another ...."caravan"  is due shortly.  How overburdened do we have to get before the democrats,  who were stupidly mocking and rolling their eyes,  when President Trump brought up the caravans in his SOTU speech last night,  begin to accept that it is a very real problem.
There's also the drug problem, fentynal, carfentynal, heroin,  and other dangerous chemicals are smuggled in, usually through existing ports of entry from what I gather,  but some are humped across by illegals,  part of the price they pay coyotes and cartels for passage..

There's no excuse for opposing a wall.  BOTH SIDES  seem to agree we need to up rate security at the entry points to stop drug smuggling,  and all should agree that more personnel, more sensors, more drones can all be part of a solution.
But a so-called "smart wall" ,  composed of nothing BUT sensors,  is illusory and useless by itself.
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2019, 08:04:10 AM »

 There are already walls in selected locations and from all reports they do help.  And from what I have heard, it is unlikely Trump will get enough funding in the short term to put a wall across the entire border, just strategically important areas in addition to what is already there.  


A wall "from sea to shining sea" is stupid and ridiculous and given geography, likely impossible. Trump (or his team) should have rethought that soundbyte.

Strategically placed barriers are absolutely workable and efficient (see the "Their walls vs our walls" thread). Combining barriers and surveillance will absolutely have a positive operational effect. I'm speaking entirely operationally. Bureaucratic stuff like policy changes may  have additional positive effects, but are just as likely to have negative effects.
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TommyGunn
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2019, 08:06:41 AM »

A wall "from sea to shining sea" is stupid and ridiculous and given geography, likely impossible. Trump (or his team) should have rethought that soundbyte.

Strategically placed barriers are absolutely workable and efficient (see the "Their walls vs our walls" thread). Combining barriers and surveillance will absolutely have a positive operational effect. I'm speaking entirely operationally. Bureaucratic stuff like policy changes may  have additional positive effects, but are just as likely to have negative effects.

Trump has already clarified his position on this.  I think everyone should recognize it was election rhetoric and not to be taken literally....except by those with TDS.
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2019, 08:17:28 AM »

It always amazes me when folks, many of whom I consider brighter than me, donĺt understand Trumps use of rhetoric and visual language.

Heĺs a consummate propagandist in this regard.

Weĺre going to get the very best wall he can swing a deal on and his starting point is a sea to shining sea wall with a big beautiful door.

Itĺs only literal if he can get it, otherwise itĺs lets make a deal.

Heĺs not stupid, heĺs probably smarter than 90% or more of our membership. Probably 100% smarter when it comes to persuasion, influence and making deals.

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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 09:26:29 AM »

One tires of the oft-repeated talking point about illegals supposedly being less violent than citizens. Whether or not it's true, it's an absurd and unfeeling rejoinder. If I'm robbed by an illegal alien, would stricter border controls mean that I would have been robbed by a fellow citizen, but worse? Of course not. Border controls might have kept me from being robbed, though. If Kate Steinle's killer hadn't been released, or hadn't been in the country, would she have been killed more violently by a citizen? No, she'd problably be alive and healthy today.

I will be glad for my tax dollars to go toward a wall/fence, even if it is completely symbolic. It would still be a better use of federal tax monies than unconstitutional programs, such the Dept. of Education, etc. So long as it gets the message across, to everyone, that our border is real, and that we control it - period.
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2019, 09:41:49 AM »

We've had many discussions here about how the government has manipulated crime stats to show what they want us to see.
But, here we also have members pointing to government crime stats to show how wonderful the screaming hordes of illegal alieans are in reality peace loving, hard working family members just trying to make a better life for themselves.

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2013/apr/15/fbis-national-crime-data-found-to-be-flawed-manipulated/

https://gcn.com/articles/2018/10/12/crime-statistics-reporting.aspx

https://fusion.tv/story/302325/fbi-crime-data-reporting/

Do any of you really believe that the reported crime stats are firmly based in reality?
Do you believe that sanctuary states that have essentially declared that illegal immigrants are more important than citizens are going to report accurate data?
 Face Palm!
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2019, 09:56:06 AM »

Wall won't do anything, most illegal aliens/immigrants/workers are folks who over stay their visa.
BS.

1. Overstayed visas are much easier to measure than illegal border crossings which means you're more likely to over-report the former and under-report the latter.
2. Even generous estimates for visa overstays indicates they make up about 44% of the illegal population.  That's not "most".
3. Recognizing that visa overstays are a significant issue doesn't mean that addressing illegal border crossing is a bad idea.
4. Whether or not a wall is a particularly effective or efficient way of reducing illegal immigration, saying it "won't do anything" is utter nonsense.  It would absolutely reduce the instance of illegal border crossing by some degree and has been shown to do so historically.
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2019, 11:15:20 AM »

It always amazes me when folks, many of whom I consider brighter than me, donĺt understand Trumps use of rhetoric and visual language.


The problem is that for examples like the "sea to shining sea" wall, it's actually Trump acolytes more so than TDS people that take that kind of thing literally. They really believe that when he says it, it's something that he can not only do, but do within their limited attention spans of a couple of years.

Not the at least 40-50 years such an endeavor would take if it were physically possible, both operationally and bureaucratically. Because eminent domain would tie such a thing up longer than construction. It's also interesting how many freedom lovers would be cool with eminent domain to build "the wall".

Had he started with strategic barriers and documentation of expert sources, Pelosi would have less of a foothold in the "immoral wall" argument. Also, honestly, I think Trump really did think he could build massive amounts of concrete wall when he first started talking about this. I do give him credit for stepping back and learning. I just wish he would quit saying "wall, wall, wall".

Also, wow! Talk about thread veer!  laugh
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