Author Topic: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday  (Read 5137 times)

makattak

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2019, 11:05:35 AM »
and the folks who want to marry their same sex partner have gone through years of that prior to recent times. It's not all one sided.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It seems odd that the principle you are supporting is "We must destroy the lives of people who act contrary to what the majority wants!"
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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2019, 11:27:50 AM »

It is one-sided, and I was laughing because you're so wrong, it's hilarious.

How is it wrong?

Gun control folks want to ban or limit gun ownership by law on those who don't shsre their belief.

Anti gay marriage only want same sex marriages by law, they wsnt to control those who want to marry their same sex partner by making it illegal.

It's about controlling those who don't share their beliefs.

Don't like guns, don't buy one. Don't like gay marriage don't have one. Believe in climate change, change your own lifestyle, don't force others.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 12:11:38 PM by charby »
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2019, 11:45:34 AM »
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It seems odd that the principle you are supporting is "We must destroy the lives of people who act contrary to what the majority wants!"

If you are open for the general public in terms of business you can't discriminate again someone who has different beliefs than you. If you will make a wedding cake for a straight couple, you can't refuse to make a cake for a gay couple.

Now if you're a hobbyist cake maker who makes cakes for say members of your church community, by all rights you can pick and choose who you can make cakes for.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2019, 01:03:11 PM »

If you are open for the general public in terms of business you can't discriminate again someone who has different beliefs than you. If you will make a wedding cake for a straight couple, you can't refuse to make a cake for a gay couple.

So much for that live and let live attitude. If someone wants to make cakes for all but 3% of the population, they aren't hurting anyone. Why can't you people leave them alone? By the way, I know someone who tries to add to her meager income by working as a wedding photographer. People with your attitude take food out of her kids' mouths. And it's not even because of whatever money she doesn't get from same-sex couples. It's because she has to be very guarded about talking to potential clients. If not, she'll be targeted by the NPCs, or even have legal action taken against her. 'Cuz love wins, right? Rainbows and tolerance, yay! You're on the side of the bullies.


How is it wrong?

...Anti gay marriage only want same sex marriages by law, they wsnt to control those who want to marry their same sex partner by making it illegal.


Are you even listening to what you're saying? You can't control someone by not recognizing their marriage. There was nothing stopping homosexuals from having fake wedding ceremonies and pretending to be married, living together, etc. We know, because they were already doing that. People like myself just didn't want to bring government into it.
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makattak

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2019, 01:36:37 PM »
...People like myself just didn't want to bring government into it.

Because, predictably, it would bring the iron heel of government against dissenters... as it has.


(Btw, that was impressive, charby. Global warming Climate change to gay marriage in 14 posts. Not a record for APS, but probably a record for switching controversies.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2019, 01:39:28 PM »
Because, predictably, it would bring the iron heel of government against dissenters... as it has.


(Btw, that was impressive, charby. Global warming Climate change to gay marriage in 14 posts. Not a record for APS, but probably a record for switching controversies.)

He also brought in abortion, because how dare anyone try to control people by not letting them kill their kids. And while we're on the subject:

http://thefederalist.com/2019/02/28/wife-decided-abort-unborn-gay-son/
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Scout26

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2019, 03:26:41 PM »
It's the difference between "acceptance" and "approval".

At first they just wanted everyone to accept their lifestyle.  (Allow for it, if you will.)

Now they demand you give your approval and not only accept but help promote it.

While most will accept it (had to deny that some people are gay), it doesn't mean we have to approve of it, and violate our own morals in doing so.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2019, 04:42:01 PM »
So much for that live and let live attitude. If someone wants to make cakes for all but 3% of the population, they aren't hurting anyone. Why can't you people leave them alone? By the way, I know someone who tries to add to her meager income by working as a wedding photographer. People with your attitude take food out of her kids' mouths. And it's not even because of whatever money she doesn't get from same-sex couples. It's because she has to be very guarded about talking to potential clients. If not, she'll be targeted by the NPCs, or even have legal action taken against her. 'Cuz love wins, right? Rainbows and tolerance, yay! You're on the side of the bullies.

Doors and services were open for general public. Same reason you can't have a white's only public drinking fountain.
I have no problem with any group that is not open to the general public to exclude whomever/whatever they want, like a private club, group or whatever.

Quote
Are you even listening to what you're saying? You can't control someone by not recognizing their marriage. There was nothing stopping homosexuals from having fake wedding ceremonies and pretending to be married, living together, etc. We know, because they were already doing that. People like myself just didn't want to bring government into it.

In Iowa the official document for the union of 2 people, says "Marriage License". I can't speak for the rest of the states, but in Iowa it has been a governmental term for decades. Being legally married does afford either party in the marriage benefits, such as filing taxes jointly, next of kinship, etc. Controlling who a person can legally marry is no different than a anti gun person trying to control what firearms a person can possess. It is nothing more than pushing beliefs by law onto people who don't agree with those beliefs. If someone doesn't want a same sex marriage, then don't get one.

If you don't want government in it, let's do away with state issued marriage (or what ever they call it in your state) licenses, it would make no minor children divorces at lot easier. 
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2019, 04:49:17 PM »
It's the difference between "acceptance" and "approval".

At first they just wanted everyone to accept their lifestyle.  (Allow for it, if you will.)

Now they demand you give your approval and not only accept but help promote it.

While most will accept it (had to deny that some people are gay), it doesn't mean we have to approve of it, and violate our own morals in doing so.

Some folks couldn't/wouldn't accept (tolerate) it or at least hold their nose, so there was a reaction.

No different than the folks who decided to 24/7 open carry in the coffee houses to shove it in peoples faces.

I agree acceptance (or a very weak toleration) is far different from approval. Also when in the public, you need to play by the rules of society if you want to keep your livelihood flowing.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2019, 04:51:55 PM »
Because, predictably, it would bring the iron heel of government against dissenters... as it has.


(Btw, that was impressive, charby. Global warming Climate change to gay marriage in 14 posts. Not a record for APS, but probably a record for switching controversies.)

Supposed to be expressing my opinion that Climate Change Belief is mostly about forcing ones beliefs on others that don't agree by law, much like other contentious single issues.  

In all fairness, the story linked in the OP had nothing about Climate Change in it.
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MechAg94

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2019, 05:26:47 PM »
Personally, I think any person or business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason they choose.  Just be open and up front about it (maybe require a sign).  

But no one seems to like that idea.  I think forcing everyone to be open and up front about their beliefs and prejudices would be better overall.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2019, 05:27:21 PM »
Doors and services were open for general public. Same reason you can't have a white's only public drinking fountain.
I have no problem with any group that is not open to the general public to exclude whomever/whatever they want, like a private club, group or whatever. 


That sounds a lot like you're imposing your beliefs on other people. Because you are.

One of the big problems with the same-sex marriage movement was (and is) that you're demanding the law be changed, in order to comply with the law. Or demanding that traditions change, in order to comply with tradition. In other words, you insist that "we do things a certain way" (serve everyone, no matter what they're asking you to do), while attacking other people who say "we do things a certain way" (only recognize marriage that includes both sexes).

You're also decietfully suggesting that a person who won't bake a gay cake is somehow refusing to serve everyone. Or you just don't know what you're talking about. People like Jack Phillips and Barronelle Stutzman have made clear they'll serve anyone, but there are services they won't perform. These are two different things.
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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2019, 05:39:41 PM »

People like Jack Phillips and Barronelle Stutzman have made clear they'll serve anyone, but there are services they won't perform. These are two different things.

That is key.

At least in the CO incident, IIRC, the baker would have baked whatever cake they wanted. He just wouldn't decorate it, but suggested they could put their own decorations on afterwards. Otherwise (to invoke Godwin), what's to keep a Jewish (or any) baker from being forced to decorate a cake with a swastika? I'm pretty sure there are tons of bakeries that would refuse to decorate a cake with a penis for a bachelorette party, but would be happy to bake the cake on which the party girls put the penises they ordered from Amazon.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2019, 05:58:21 PM »
Personally, I think any person or business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason they choose.  Just be open and up front about it (maybe require a sign).  

But no one seems to like that idea.  I think forcing everyone to be open and up front about their beliefs and prejudices would be better overall.

Many will not put their beliefs in writing for everyone to see.

If laws were changed to allow open to the public business to pick and choose services they provided to whom, then fine. Right now it isn't that way.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2019, 06:00:13 PM »
That is key.

At least in the CO incident, IIRC, the baker would have baked whatever cake they wanted. He just wouldn't decorate it, but suggested they could put their own decorations on afterwards. Otherwise (to invoke Godwin), what's to keep a Jewish (or any) baker from being forced to decorate a cake with a swastika? I'm pretty sure there are tons of bakeries that would refuse to decorate a cake with a penis for a bachelorette party, but would be happy to bake the cake on which the party girls put the penises they ordered from Amazon.

If the Jewish bakery was open to the public and offered custom cake decorating to customers, I would have to side with the NAZI and I'm a Jew.
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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2019, 06:06:33 PM »
If the Jewish bakery was open to the public and offered custom cake decorating to customers, I would have to side with the NAZI and I'm a Jew.

I thought you were Catholic?

Then what about genitalia? What about a black guy in a noose? I'm not sure I know a single bakery that would decorate your cake with ANYTHING. I know there are those porn bakeries, but they advertise what they do right out front. To force that on someone else is not exercising your rights, it's taking away theirs.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2019, 06:15:08 PM »

That sounds a lot like you're imposing your beliefs on other people. Because you are.


Not really, neither side wins 100% or even 50% most of the time. Sides that want it all are going to be on the losing side of history, when is the last time you seen a segregated public school? I think St. Louis area was one of the last hold outs, iirc. Or a whites only fountain?


Quote

One of the big problems with the same-sex marriage movement was (and is) that you're demanding the law be changed, in order to comply with the law. Or demanding that traditions change, in order to comply with tradition. In other words, you insist that "we do things a certain way" (serve everyone, no matter what they're asking you to do), while attacking other people who say "we do things a certain way" (only recognize marriage that includes both sexes).

You're also decietfully suggesting that a person who won't bake a gay cake is somehow refusing to serve everyone. Or you just don't know what you're talking about. People like Jack Phillips and Barronelle Stutzman have made clear they'll serve anyone, but there are services they won't perform. These are two different things.

Did the bakers custom decorate any cakes for anyone in the past?

How would you feel if you mortgage was sold to bank primarily owned by Muslims and they started adding high dollar fees to payments of non Muslim note holders, or started jacking your due date around each month so you fall behind in payments. Where does it stop when personal beliefs are allowed to dictate what services are provided to people by who they are.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2019, 06:16:10 PM »
I thought you were Catholic?

Then what about genitalia? What about a black guy in a noose? I'm not sure I know a single bakery that would decorate your cake with ANYTHING. I know there are those porn bakeries, but they advertise what they do right out front. To force that on someone else is not exercising your rights, it's taking away theirs.

Raised Catholic, Jewish Ancestry (non practicing)

If they open to the public and advertise custom cake designs, they should put whatever the customer requests if it's legal.
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Ben

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2019, 06:27:46 PM »
Raised Catholic, Jewish Ancestry (non practicing)

If they open to the public and advertise custom cake designs, they should put whatever the customer requests if it's legal.


Dude, I'm sorry, but you're totally reaching if you think a black baker should decorate a cake with a black guy hanging from a noose. He has every right to tell you to get bent.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2019, 06:37:47 PM »
Dude, I'm sorry, but you're totally reaching if you think a black baker should decorate a cake with a black guy hanging from a noose. He has every right to tell you to get bent.

I don't agree with it either, anymore than KKK having parades on main street, but I believe if are open to the public, you have to serve the public if it's legal. Perhaps there is a local or state law prohibiting images of hate crimes, then the baker would be in the right to refuse service to person requesting that image.

If a person walked into a open to the public gay owned bakery and asked for a cake decorated with "Fags must die", I would have to side with the customer.

A gas station doesn't have to serve someone trying to buy gas with a glass jar, because that is illegal. A bar doesn't have to serve a drunk person because it is illegal to serve a drunk person where I live. A gun dealer doesn't have to sell to a felon, because that is also illegal to sell a firearm to a felon.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2019, 06:42:20 PM »
Also, I don't think that churches are open to the public, to be a member one normally has to fit a certain criteria of core beliefs (if not very specific beliefs) and I have to problem with established chartered churches refusing to provide marriages to anyone.
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Ben

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2019, 06:45:13 PM »
I don't agree with it either, anymore than KKK having parades on main street, but I believe if are open to the public, you have to serve the public if it's legal.

I see where you're debating from, but I would do about a 90deg turn on it. If that's you're argument, then there should be a KKK bakery next door to the black guy's bakery. He gets to tell you to get bent and then they will happily decorate the cake.
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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2019, 06:46:42 PM »
Personally, I think any person or business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason they choose.  Just be open and up front about it (maybe require a sign).  

But no one seems to like that idea.  I think forcing everyone to be open and up front about their beliefs and prejudices would be better overall.


That's one of the reasons I've never tried to go into business for myself.
I pretty much just hate people in general so I'd just end up running off all my potential customers.

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2019, 06:52:27 PM »
I pretty much just hate people in general

What about us? Don't you like us? Buddy? Pal?  =D
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2019, 06:54:10 PM »
I see where you're debating from, but I would do about a 90deg turn on it. If that's you're argument, then there should be a KKK bakery next door to the black guy's bakery. He gets to tell you to get bent and then they will happily decorate the cake.

I get ya.

I tow a pretty hard line on this belief of if your open for public, you serve the public, because if you fight against those who believe differently than you and your side loses that battle, life is going to suck for you. A weak toleration goes along ways in preserving your beliefs and livelihood.
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