Author Topic: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday  (Read 5136 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2019, 03:47:50 PM »
I don't agree with it either, anymore than KKK having parades on main street, but I believe if are open to the public, you have to serve the public if it's legal. Perhaps there is a local or state law prohibiting images of hate crimes, then the baker would be in the right to refuse service to person requesting that image.

If a person walked into a open to the public gay owned bakery and asked for a cake decorated with "Fags must die", I would have to side with the customer.

A gas station doesn't have to serve someone trying to buy gas with a glass jar, because that is illegal. A bar doesn't have to serve a drunk person because it is illegal to serve a drunk person where I live. A gun dealer doesn't have to sell to a felon, because that is also illegal to sell a firearm to a felon.

And when the law didn't recognize same-sex marriages, you were perfectly alright with that, right? I mean, it was the law, right? So you must have been OK with it.

I remember when you used to complain about social conservatives imposing their will on people. It was just earlier in this thread, in fact. I guess you don't care how heavy-handed government is, so long as those icky conservatives get their comeuppance.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2019, 04:25:04 PM »
Not really, neither side wins 100% or even 50% most of the time. Sides that want it all are going to be on the losing side of history, when is the last time you seen a segregated public school? I think St. Louis area was one of the last hold outs, iirc. Or a whites only fountain?


Did the bakers custom decorate any cakes for anyone in the past?

How would you feel if you mortgage was sold to bank primarily owned by Muslims and they started adding high dollar fees to payments of non Muslim note holders, or started jacking your due date around each month so you fall behind in payments. Where does it stop when personal beliefs are allowed to dictate what services are provided to people by who they are.

I don't feel I need to explain why these are somewhat different situations (to put it mildly) than demanding that a baker decorate your cake with something offensive.

If it helps you, though, I wouldn't use force (as you are so ready to do) to make some small business do what I want them to do. If a Muslim wanted to open a bank that caters to other Muslims, and isn't so friendly to the non-Muslims - well, it's their bank. I don't know much about banking regulations, though. I suspect it would not be as simple as that. If they start taking over loans from unsuspecting infidels, yeah, that would be quite a bit different than just not wanting to serve pork sandwiches. Even then, the home-owner can get his loan refinanced, so I'm not as ready to start cracking down on the Muslims as you are.

Violating personal property rights and free association rights looked a whole lot different, when black people were having a hard time finding a decent place to eat, or a room to sleep in. Perhaps it was excusable then. Today, forcing business owners to serve anyone, in any fashion they want? No, there's no excuse for it. It can't be justified.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2019, 05:51:18 PM »
IIRC gay marriage wasn't a thing until gay couples were excluded hospital decisions/ next of kinship type stuff because they weren't lefally married. They fought back through the courts and are winning.

I hope you are never refused service at a establishment open to public for your beliefs.

Keep pushing the minority groups out and it's going to happen.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2019, 09:13:07 PM »
IIRC gay marriage wasn't a thing until gay couples were excluded hospital decisions/ next of kinship type stuff because they weren't lefally married. They fought back through the courts and are winning.


That was resolved by the creation of "civil unions," years ago. Initially, the LBQTXYZ activists said that was all they were concerned about, and that civil unions satisfied their issues. Then, not too many years later, they upped the ante and decided that civil unions weren't enough, they wanted to be "married." So now we're fighting over their efforts to redefine "marriage."
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2019, 01:43:50 AM »
That was resolved by the creation of "civil unions," years ago. Initially, the LBQTXYZ activists said that was all they were concerned about, and that civil unions satisfied their issues. Then, not too many years later, they upped the ante and decided that civil unions weren't enough, they wanted to be "married." So now we're fighting over their efforts to redefine "marriage."

Iowa was near ground zero for that.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2019, 04:52:57 AM »
Iowa was near ground zero for that.

It doesn't matter where ground zero was, it's spreading like wildfire. The Worldwide Anglican Communion has been in an undeclared state of schism over the issue of same sex marriage (and ordination of gay clergy and bishops) for at least a decade. Now, as of last week, the Methodist Church is in a similar situation. Their governing body affirmed their church's teaching (based on Scripture) that marriage is between one man and one woman, and that Methodist churches and clergy are not to perform same sex marriages. This is certain to result in some people leaving that denomination, and it may lead to some parishes trying to divorce themselves from the governing body.

How many states now recognize same sex marriages? http://www.governing.com/gov-data/same-sex-marriage-civil-unions-doma-laws-by-state.html

Note that the map represents the situation before the Supreme Court stuck its nose in and said that state laws preventing same sex marriages are unconstitutional.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2019, 11:18:52 AM »
It doesn't matter where ground zero was, it's spreading like wildfire. The Worldwide Anglican Communion has been in an undeclared state of schism over the issue of same sex marriage (and ordination of gay clergy and bishops) for at least a decade. Now, as of last week, the Methodist Church is in a similar situation. Their governing body affirmed their church's teaching (based on Scripture) that marriage is between one man and one woman, and that Methodist churches and clergy are not to perform same sex marriages. This is certain to result in some people leaving that denomination, and it may lead to some parishes trying to divorce themselves from the governing body.

How many states now recognize same sex marriages? http://www.governing.com/gov-data/same-sex-marriage-civil-unions-doma-laws-by-state.html

Note that the map represents the situation before the Supreme Court stuck its nose in and said that state laws preventing same sex marriages are unconstitutional.

If they would pushed to get the name "Marriage License" struck from law and changed to "Civil Union License" in legal documents in every states, probably wouldn't turned out this way. Or change it where legally one has to go to a government office to get "Civil Unioned" as the initial step entering a union. If one has a the belief that marriage should occur in a church like setting, then that ceremony can follow afterwards at their place of choosing. I think Germany does it this way, Civil first, other ceremony optional afterwards.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2019, 06:14:46 PM »
I hope you are never refused service at a establishment open to public for your beliefs.

Keep pushing the minority groups out and it's going to happen.

You're claiming that I'm pushing minority groups out? Out of what? I'm not the one arguing that people who disagree with me are not allowed to have businesses, or hold certain government jobs.

We already have instances of conservatives being harassed, or being refused service at establishments for their beliefs, whether religious, or otherwise. I object to that on the same basis I'd object to a person being refused service for their skin color. That doesn't mean I'll go so far as to use the government to force those people to do what I want. I'm the individual liberties guy.

If "pushing the minority groups out" means keeping homosexual couples from getting married, then keep in mind the conservatives being hounded out of restaurants is something that started happening AFTER Obergefell.

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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2019, 08:17:32 AM »
You're claiming that I'm pushing minority groups out? Out of what? I'm not the one arguing that people who disagree with me are not allowed to have businesses, or hold certain government jobs.

We already have instances of conservatives being harassed, or being refused service at establishments for their beliefs, whether religious, or otherwise. I object to that on the same basis I'd object to a person being refused service for their skin color. That doesn't mean I'll go so far as to use the government to force those people to do what I want. I'm the individual liberties guy.

If "pushing the minority groups out" means keeping homosexual couples from getting married, then keep in mind the conservatives being hounded out of restaurants is something that started happening AFTER Obergefell.

Pushing minority groups out has been happening for decades, just going into/through a period where they are pushing back hard. If it keeps up many of the "majority" are going to find themselves on the losing side of history. I have same problems with conservatives being refused service at a place that is open to the public. If you are open to the public, you are obligated to serve all members of the public, unless it is illegal by law. Such as serving am intoxicated person more drinks, or tattooing a 12 year old.

Speaking of Obergefell, how is that no different than trying to make nationwide CCW reciprocity the law of the land?
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griz

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2019, 08:18:47 AM »

Violating personal property rights and free association rights looked a whole lot different, when black people were having a hard time finding a decent place to eat, or a room to sleep in. Perhaps it was excusable then. Today, forcing business owners to serve anyone, in any fashion they want? No, there's no excuse for it. It can't be justified.

Would you clarify that?  It sounds like you would be OK with, today, a hotel had a policy that refused to rent rooms to black people.
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MechAg94

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2019, 08:43:27 AM »
Would you clarify that?  It sounds like you would be OK with, today, a hotel had a policy that refused to rent rooms to black people.
To some extent, you either force everyone to provide the same services to everyone else or let them do what they want.  One school of thought is to let everyone do what they want so long as they put their restrictions right out in the open so everyone can see.  Would you stay at a hotel that had a sign out front saying "no black people"?  Many wouldn't. 
I am not entirely sure it would be better.  Most businesses wouldn't want to be restrictive, but there would be ugly examples out there.  However, there are ugly examples out there with the current system with people put out of business because they were targeted by radical political groups and sued repeatedly. 
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makattak

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2019, 08:56:50 AM »
I don't agree with it either, anymore than KKK having parades on main street, but I believe if are open to the public, you have to serve the public if it's legal. Perhaps there is a local or state law prohibiting images of hate crimes, then the baker would be in the right to refuse service to person requesting that image.

If a person walked into a open to the public gay owned bakery and asked for a cake decorated with "Fags must die", I would have to side with the customer.

A gas station doesn't have to serve someone trying to buy gas with a glass jar, because that is illegal. A bar doesn't have to serve a drunk person because it is illegal to serve a drunk person where I live. A gun dealer doesn't have to sell to a felon, because that is also illegal to sell a firearm to a felon.

Are lawyers required to take every case that comes into their office and can pay the fee?

(The answer is no, of course.)

Why are other specialty services required to do that, then?
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2019, 10:58:30 AM »
Are lawyers required to take every case that comes into their office and can pay the fee?

(The answer is no, of course.)

Why are other specialty services required to do that, then?

Lawyers openly advertise what they specialize in and there are conflict of interest statues in most places. They and other professions can post openly, not taking any new clients because their schedule and resources are full.

Also if some goes into McDonald's and demands a rare t-bone steak, they can be refused that service they are requesting.

A Muslim check out person at Costco can't refuse to ring up a industrial sized box of bacon to a paying customer either.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2019, 11:08:30 AM »
Also if some goes into McDonald's and demands a rare t-bone steak, they can be refused that service they are requesting.

Since McDonald's doesn't offer T-bone steaks, this is not a valid point of discussion. Laws prohibiting discrimination do not require private businesses to offer services they don't provide.


A Muslim check out person at Costco can't refuse to ring up a industrial sized box of bacon to a paying customer either.

Are you certain that Muslims haven't negotiated a workplace rule that allows them to decline to ring up pork products? Costco presumably can't offer bacon for sale and then decline to sell it to a customer, but that doesn't mean Muslim checkout associates can't negotiate rules that allow them to not handle bacon.
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makattak

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2019, 11:24:44 AM »
Lawyers openly advertise what they specialize in and there are conflict of interest statues in most places. They and other professions can post openly, not taking any new clients because their schedule and resources are full.

Also if some goes into McDonald's and demands a rare t-bone steak, they can be refused that service they are requesting.

A Muslim check out person at Costco can't refuse to ring up a industrial sized box of bacon to a paying customer either.

So, if a potential client comes into a lawyer and wants that lawyer to represent him in the area that the lawyer practices in, he has to take that client and represent him if he does not have a full client list?

I know you're trying to avoid admitting lawyers have the freedom to decline a client for any reason, but they do. Why is that?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2019, 11:46:56 AM »
Also if some goes into McDonald's and demands a rare t-bone steak, they can be refused that service they are requesting.

In that case the baker doesn't have to decorate the gay cake. The baker didn't have gay cake decorations as part of his business - he would have had to acquire them to decorate the cake. If the baker has to buy products he doesn't carry as part of his business, then McDs has to add steak to their next meat order.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2019, 11:53:15 AM »
In that case the baker doesn't have to decorate the gay cake. The baker didn't have gay cake decorations as part of his business - he would have had to acquire them to decorate the cake. If the baker has to buy products he doesn't carry as part of his business, then McDs has to add steak to their next meat order.

Pretty sure asking for a hand written message on a cake a bakery couldn't claim they are out of handwriting. Perhaps asking for a same sex plastic topper they could. Same for a penis cake, we don't have that mold.
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Ron

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2019, 12:00:06 PM »
If a minority, woman or sexually disordered person wants access to your business or group you must submit.

The right to peaceably assemble is a dead letter. Both government and corporations increasingly are moving to grind you into the dust if you attempt to assemble alternative institutions or options to those sanctified by the state.

I wonder how long the Amish and other Christian separatist sects can holdout before they are made to submit.

Nice little furniture store you have there, be a shame if something were to happen to it ...
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Ron

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2019, 12:07:32 PM »
Universal egalitarianism is governmental tyranny.

You can have liberty or you can have egalitarianism but you cannot have both.

Egalitarianism works in small groups like the Amish because you can always up and leave. Enforcing it on a national or global scale leaves a liberty loving man no home.

Egalitarianism is not tolerant, it will consume all spaces until it reigns supreme.

It’s sort of like entropy. It destroys natural order and hierarchies, destroys true diversity, then everything starts to disintegrate and collapse into anarchy.

We used to call egalitarianism “communism”.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2019, 12:09:15 PM »
Pretty sure asking for a hand written message on a cake a bakery couldn't claim they are out of handwriting. Perhaps asking for a same sex plastic topper they could. Same for a penis cake, we don't have that mold.

My understanding was that the baker was supposed to provide a same-sex decoration. His whole point was that he would have been happy to bake the cake and let them put their own topper on it.

Also, if a baker is forced against his will and philosophy to write some disgusting and derogatory comment about a specific group of people on the cake, and then the SJWs (or tea party or whoever) picket his place and run him out of business for doing it, that's okay? Because the protestors won't be going after the person that ordered the cake, they'll be going after the baker for not refusing.
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charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2019, 12:19:28 PM »
My understanding was that the baker was supposed to provide a same-sex decoration. His whole point was that he would have been happy to bake the cake and let them put their own topper on it.

Also, if a baker is forced against his will and philosophy to write some disgusting and derogatory comment about a specific group of people on the cake, and then the SJWs (or tea party or whoever) picket his place and run him out of business for doing it, that's okay? Because the protestors won't be going after the person that ordered the cake, they'll be going after the baker for not refusing.

Did the baker make a error in judgement by showing the SS couple a complete copy of the catalog where they ordered cake decorating supplies from? If I had a cake business, I would have a very specific book of images and description of exactly what services I offer to everyone. Also I wouldn't give a rats ass what a paying customer wanted, you pay, I'll bake it. Even a giant donkey for a Democrat victory party.

Real eaay, publucally display the contract with the name of the group or individual that ordered it. No different if a hotel rented out a meeting room for the KKK conference.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM by charby »
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Ron

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2019, 01:04:14 PM »
Real eaay, publucally display the contract with the name of the group or individual that ordered it. No different if a hotel rented out a meeting room for the KKK conference.

KKK = controlled opposition, convenient foil to tar southerners, conservatives and anyone not down with diversity.

They are allowed to exist for a reason.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

charby

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2019, 01:10:59 PM »
KKK = controlled opposition, convenient foil to tar southerners, conservatives and anyone not down with diversity.

They are allowed to exist for a reason.

Renting out a meeting room for Pentecostal church to have a summit on the sins of homosexuality in a gay owned hotel.
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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2019, 01:19:46 PM »
Renting out a meeting room for Pentecostal church to have a summit on the sins of homosexuality in a gay owned hotel.

“Your money is no good here” works fine for me.

If towns or cities want to impose radical egalitarianism I’m OK with that, at least you can go someplace to escape.



« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 01:54:29 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: Global warming: Passengers stranded on west coast Amtrak since Sunday
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2019, 04:04:17 PM »
Did the baker make a error in judgement by showing the SS couple a complete copy of the catalog where they ordered cake decorating supplies from? If I had a cake business, I would have a very specific book of images and description of exactly what services I offer to everyone. Also I wouldn't give a rats ass what a paying customer wanted, you pay, I'll bake it. Even a giant donkey for a Democrat victory party.

Real eaay, publucally display the contract with the name of the group or individual that ordered it. No different if a hotel rented out a meeting room for the KKK conference.
My understanding is they did not want a standard cake with standard topping.  They wanted a custom cake and they wanted a specific message on the cake that he objected to.  They were not trying to get a cake.  They were trying to get him to say "no".  In a sane world, their case would have been thrown out at all levels. 

I think if one of these groups decided you were their target, you would have a different view.
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