Author Topic: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...  (Read 2731 times)

p12

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2019, 10:20:21 PM »
I had a similar issue. I wrapped my little finger of the firing hand on the outside of the support hand and fixed the issue.

I had developed a pulling issue with my little finger. Fired about 200 rounds with the different grip then tried a normal grip.

Issue was fixed. Don’t know why it developed.


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K Frame

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2019, 11:41:28 PM »
Well, according to Fly, the proper response to that would have been to cut the finger off. Because somehow your abilities aren't abilities. And your gun is perfect. And your finger is alien satan spawn.

 ;/

Then again, maybe the truly correct interpretation of this is that every other gun that I shoot (literally dozens) I'm actually shooting WRONG, but my 410 is the only one I'm shooting correctly.

That HAS to be it.
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Fly320s

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2019, 06:42:38 AM »
Well, according to Fly, the proper response to that would have been to cut the finger off. Because somehow your abilities aren't abilities. And your gun is perfect. And your finger is alien satan spawn.

 ;/

Then again, maybe the truly correct interpretation of this is that every other gun that I shoot (literally dozens) I'm actually shooting WRONG, but my 410 is the only one I'm shooting correctly.

That HAS to be it.

You are a complete *expletive deleted*ing idiot.

You said the gun shoots correctly for Mtnbkr and the problem lies with you.  I gave you a solution to your problem that is basically free and would improve your shooting across all platforms and all you do is take everything I wrote out of context.

If you don't want to improve, then quit your *expletive deleted*ing whining on here and do your own thing.
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French G.

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2019, 02:42:34 PM »
Personal attacks aside, the gun moves. Yes, the bullet hits wherever the sights were when the bullet left the barrel. Which is not always the same as when the trigger broke. My 147 experience is common and simple physics. Newton didn't say equal and opposite once the bullet is gone. Maybe it's not a lot, but it moves. Weirdest, same ammo, went to a titanium striker. POI went three inches up at 25. Less inertia that had been previously driving the gun just slightly downwards.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

230RN

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2019, 03:10:24 PM »
Personal attacks aside, the gun moves. Yes, the bullet hits wherever the sights were when the bullet left the barrel. Which is not always the same as when the trigger broke. My 147 experience is common and simple physics. Newton didn't say equal and opposite once the bullet is gone. Maybe it's not a lot, but it moves. Weirdest, same ammo, went to a titanium striker. POI went three inches up at 25. Less inertia that had been previously driving the gun just slightly downwards.

Thank you.  I for one cannot understand why people cannot understand that there is a recoil force while the bullet is moving up the barrel.  Action, reaction.

Whether this recoil force moves the gun or not or whether it's normally detectable depends mainly on...

Whether the barrel is above, below, or in line with the "pivot point" of the gun in your hand.

Whether the gun is firmly fixed to a massive object or is itself massive.

The meatiness of the hand holding the gun.

Whether the handgun is a revolver, with an external barrel firmly mounted to the frame of the gun, versus a semiauto.

The mass and velocity of the bullet compared to where and how the gun is mounted.

I assert that Mythbusters have neither the expertise nor the equipment compared to the U.S. Army Ordnance Department, or, for that matter, of Major General Hatcher, whose entire military career related to firearms and their physics.

...

Handguns (and indeed all guns) recoil slightly before the bullet leaves the barrel.  Since handguns are held in a squishy plastic medium, this is why they are in fact sensitive to how they're held and the mass of the bullet. (They're also sensitive to torque recoil (left versus right-hand rifling) but this is a pretty minor effect.)

I get tired of arguing this point, so in the last fifteen years, I've been just citing the science and letting it go at that:

Hatcher's Notebook "The theory of recoil," Chapter XII, pp 293 ff, esp p295ff.



Take a centerfire revolver, lay a ruler on its sights, and you will usually see that the barrel points downward from the line of sight to compensate for this effect.

Terry, 230RN

« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 03:36:45 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

WLJ

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2019, 03:21:16 PM »
*

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WLJ

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2019, 03:31:38 PM »
Thank you.  I for one cannot understand why people cannot understand that there is a recoil force while the bullet is moving up the barrel.  Action, reaction.


Actually the barrel is being dragged forward by the friction of the bullet as it travels down the barrel. Blow forward guns work using that force created by that friction.

Blow forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_forward
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230RN

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2019, 03:41:37 PM »
Yes, another effect, but unless the friction so great that the bullet doesn't move at all, the recoil-while-the-bullet-is-in-the-barrel still exists.

Nobody ever said that interior ballistics was simple.  I avoided mentioning that friction effect because it does not enter into the meat of the discussion.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the angular recoil due to the rifling, which I danced around a little bit in an earlier post.  It has been said that the left-hand twist of the 1911 caused several complaints that the gun tended to twist out of the doughboys' hands.

"Nobody ever said that interior ballistics was simple."

It's only simple for those who take the blatherings of Drill Instructors, Firearms instructors, internet gurus, and Mythbusters as Gospel.

I'm pretty much done with this, pursuant to the following:

Quote
I get tired of arguing this point, so in the last fifteen years, I've been just citing the science and letting it go at that:

Hatcher's Notebook "The theory of recoil," Chapter XII, pp 293 ff, esp p295ff.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 04:27:23 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

WLJ

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »
Yes, another effect, but unless the friction so great that the bullet doesn't move at all, the recoil-while-the-bullet-is-in-the-barrel still exists.

Nobody ever said that interior ballistics was simple.  I avoided mentioning that friction effect because it does not enter into the meat of the discussion.

The rearward energy is absorbed by the rearward movement of the slide and/or bolt and isn't felt by the shooter until they hit their stops and the energy is transferred to the frame. That's how recoil operation guns work. The bullet is long gone by that time.
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WLJ

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2019, 03:56:37 PM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2019, 04:15:08 PM »
The rearward energy is absorbed by the rearward movement of the slide and/or bolt and isn't felt by the shooter until they hit their stops and the energy is transferred to the frame. That's how recoil operation guns work. The bullet is long gone by that time.

Not quite.  Some of the energy is transmitted through the springs and to the frame (and shooter) right away.  It's more than a lot of people think too, as evidenced by the fact that some shooters of smaller stature or weaker hands can't even hold a semi and gunlock it.

That amount of energy is small, however, when compared to the rest of the recoil impulse which hits suddenly when the slide (or bolt) bottoms out.

FWIW, excepting a very little push from some expanding low pressure gas, ALL the momentum the slide/barrel is going to get is delivered to it before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Quote from: WLJ
Actually the barrel is being dragged forward by the friction of the bullet as it travels down the barrel. Blow forward guns work using that force created by that friction.

Blow forward
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blow_forward

Remember though, Blow Forward operated firearms are pretty exclusively unlocked breech firearms.  The friction of the bullet on the barrel can pull a barrel forward when it's not attached to the breech and subject to the much more significant backward push of the expanding propellant.  I suspect you'd find that the relative forces (forward from friction vs. rearward w/ breech) are orders of magnitude different, and since the pressure rearward is greater, the barrel is not pulled forward at all.  At most it's simply not accelerated backwards quite as much.  (vector sums)

K Frame

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2019, 05:47:05 PM »
Did you ever stop to think that the gun might actually be shooting correctly for me but not Mtnbkr? Given the sampling of exactly two, either is possible.

You also ignored the the point that this is the only gun I've had this issue with - with the rest of my 40+ handguns i dont have this issue - yet somehow in your world my skills are bereft across the board. Yeah... no.

I'm not exactly sure what you teach, but I know it likely would be of no use to me.

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Ben

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Re: Annoying issue... not sure what I'll do...
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2019, 06:00:45 PM »
I think we'll go ahead and lock this one down. Plenty of informational links for people to follow on their own.
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