Author Topic: Air travel  (Read 7532 times)

Fly320s

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2019, 06:47:43 PM »
Maybe the information they had from US pilots that they also had issues but were able to overcome the issue and continue the flight as intended. Possibly US aircrews are trained a little better or are more able to rationalize on the fly? We were always taught that if you did something and it upset the apple cart undo what you just did to begin with. Just a thought.

bob



In my experience teaching Saudis and Indonesians to fly, yes, Americans and other westerners are much better prepared to learn to fly.  The general knowledge and comfort with technology really helps.
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MechAg94

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2019, 06:50:21 PM »
Based on new "physical evidence" recovered at the crash scene.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

Considering that the plane basically nosedived and augered in perpendicular to the ground, pulverizing everything, the only physical evidence I can imagine that would have yielded any information at all would be the black boxes.
Reading what they are speculating about the cause kind of points back to other systems such as computer operated cars.  If you choose to do that, you are at the mercy of malfunctioning computers and/or instrumentation. 
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BobR

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2019, 06:54:36 PM »
In my experience teaching Saudis and Indonesians to fly, yes, Americans and other westerners are much better prepared to learn to fly.  The general knowledge and comfort with technology really helps.

I helped the US Navy train Iranians back in the day when we still sold them airplanes (F4s, F14s and P3s) to play with. To say they could not always grasp the finer parts of the instruction would be an understatement. Their common method of taking the exams was to have one guy translate the question into Farsi and all of them would discuss it for a while and then all answer the same. Many times the term "dumber than a box of rocks" was thrown about. ;)

bob

sumpnz

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2019, 07:09:38 PM »
Boeing 737 Max fleet grounded in U.S. https://seekingalpha.com/news/3442445?source=ansh $BA, $LUV


Andiron

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2019, 07:44:32 PM »
I helped the US Navy train Iranians back in the day when we still sold them airplanes (F4s, F14s and P3s) to play with. To say they could not always grasp the finer parts of the instruction would be an understatement. Their common method of taking the exams was to have one guy translate the question into Farsi and all of them would discuss it for a while and then all answer the same. Many times the term "dumber than a box of rocks" was thrown about. ;)

bob


I've worked with Jordanian and Afghans,  they're no better.  And that's at basic infantry *expletive deleted*it.  Can't imagine training them on something more complicated than machine guns.
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2019, 08:06:21 PM »
Different plane, but that "augering in" sounds like what happened in that Air Alaska crash.  The jackscrew operating the elevators got stripped out due to lack of proper maintenance / lubrication procedures and locked the elevators into an uncontrollable dive.

The thing there was the pilots tried their best guess at a correction procedure and the correction procedure itself was irreversible and caused it to fail totally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261

Quote
The probable cause was stated to be "a loss of airplane pitch control resulting from the in-flight failure of the horizontal stabilizer trim system jackscrew assembly's acme nut threads. The thread failure was caused by excessive wear resulting from Alaska Airlines' insufficient lubrication of the jackscrew assembly".

Fly320s

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2019, 07:00:41 AM »
Different plane, but that "augering in" sounds like what happened in that Air Alaska crash.  The jackscrew operating the elevators got stripped out due to lack of proper maintenance / lubrication procedures and locked the elevators into an uncontrollable dive.

The thing there was the pilots tried their best guess at a correction procedure and the correction procedure itself was irreversible and caused it to fail totally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261


In this case it sounds like a software failure, not a hardware failure.  Either way, the result is the same.
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MillCreek

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2019, 09:56:14 AM »
_____________
Regards,
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2019, 07:56:24 PM »

"You have reached your limit of free articles. "


RocketMan

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2019, 08:51:53 PM »
I call dibs on all your stuff... =D =D

You're welcome to all of it.  You may be sorry.   :P  >:D
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2019, 10:45:51 PM »
"You have reached your limit of free articles. "


Delete cookies.
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Scout26

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2019, 12:33:36 AM »
You're welcome to all of it.  You may be sorry.   :P  >:D

Dibs just means that I get to paw through it first to take what I want, not that I get all of it....
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2019, 01:21:34 PM »
Update: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/piece-found-at-ethiopian-airlines-crash-site-shows-jet-was-set-to-dive-2008100

I assume the "screw-like device" referred to is related to the stabilizer trim mechanism?
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2019, 03:09:25 PM »
From Hawkmoon's citation above:

Quote
Piece Found At Ethiopian Airlines Crash Site Shows Jet Was Set To Dive

....

A screw-like device found in the wreckage of the Boeing 737 Max that crashed last Sunday in Ethiopia indicates the plane was configured to dive, a piece of evidence that helped convince U.S. regulators to ground the model, a person familiar with the investigation said late Thursday night.

The piece of evidence was a so-called jackscrew, used to set the trim that raises and lowers the plane's nose, according to the person, who requested anonymity to discuss the inquiry.

Interesting in light of Reply #30 on this topic referring to the Alaska Airlines crash:

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=59706.msg1201624#msg1201624

Bur we shall see.  I never really trusted data based on a request of anonymity.

It still might be software driving the screw to its "dive" limits, as opposed to its getting stuck there due to improper lubrication.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 03:22:44 PM by 230RN »

Scout26

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2019, 03:23:22 PM »
It could show that the compuetrized "stall preventer" had adjusted the the piece, not that the part was defective/broken as in the Alaska Airlines instance.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Fly320s

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2019, 04:00:29 PM »
It could show that the compuetrized "stall preventer" had adjusted the the piece, not that the part was defective/broken as in the Alaska Airlines instance.

That would be my take on it.

These 737Max planes are brand-new.  There shouldn't be any mechanical problems with them.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2019, 04:20:33 PM »
From what little I understand about the complexities of modern aircraft, I gather that on the 737 the angle of attack of the entire horizontal stabilizers on the tail assembly is what gets adjusted to trim the airplane for neutral level flight. This is what that screw jack thingie adjusts. Then the elevators (the smaller flaps within the horizontal stabilizers) are used to command changes up or down from neutral flight by the flight controls.

Apparently the MCAS automated trim system in the 737 Max planes uses the horizontal stabilizer trim function to command the nose to go down if the little mice in the box under the cabin floor think they've detected an imminent stall configuration. This means that the BIG parts of the tail feathers are telling the plane to point down, and the little parts that the pilots can move with their yoke just aren't large enough to generate enough force to counteract what the auto-trim is calling for.

To Fly320s -- does that sort of explain what might have been going on?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 04:36:51 PM by Hawkmoon »
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2019, 04:21:35 PM »
Yeah, well, I mentioned that:

Quote
It still might be software driving the screw to its "dive" limits, as opposed to its getting stuck there due to improper lubrication.

I'm not married to its being a purely mechanical problem. 

230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2019, 04:24:27 PM »
^ That was referring to post 40, but I didn't want to edit post 42.

Somewhere, there's possibly a Software Engineer (or a group of them) going over their code in great detail.

And thinking of where they put their passports.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2019, 04:34:45 PM »

Somewhere, there's possibly a Software Engineer (or a group of them) going over their code in great detail.


Since Boeing has already announced that there will be a revision to the MCAS software deployed in April, I don't think we need to say "possibly."
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2019, 04:36:20 PM »
OK, thanks.  I missed that.

Nap time.

Fly320s

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2019, 05:37:59 PM »
To Fly320s -- does that sort of explain what might have been going on?

Sounds right to me.  I have no experience on the 737, though.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2019, 06:08:47 PM »
Here's video by a Swedish pilot (captain) who flies the 373-800 NG:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlinocVHpzk

He covers this pretty well. (I think.)
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Bob F.

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2019, 09:45:36 PM »
Not sure if I saw it on TV or the Web, like MSN or Fox homepage, but " 'Sully' said 'absurd' lack of training." Or, based on previous posts, failure to learn from said training.
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Unisaw

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2019, 10:29:24 PM »
I believe Sully said that in reference to the first officer’s whopping 200 hours of total time.
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