Author Topic: Air travel  (Read 7519 times)

230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2019, 06:10:13 PM »
Co-pilot: If I turn it to "OFF," how do we correct it to a neutral non-dive condition?"

Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2019, 06:12:26 PM »
Turn that little wheel next to your left knee.
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2019, 06:18:16 PM »
I'm not being a smartass, and I've liked that guy's vids before, but I don't feel like sitting through 22 minutes to hear the solution.  No offense, WLJ, but a precis would've been nice.

And if it were that simple, Hawkmoon, how come over 200(?) people are dead?  Including the would-be "little wheel" turners?

One of these days I may watch the video for 22 minutes and come to the conclusion that the crashes were due to stupid pilots.  Case(s) closed, and what a cute little doggie.

Terry

WLJ

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2019, 06:24:42 PM »
I'm not being a smartass, and I've liked that guy's vids before, but I don't feel like sitting through 22 minutes to hear the solution.  No offense, WLJ, but a precis would've been nice.


Duly noted
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230RN

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2019, 06:53:15 PM »
In some venues, it's called a drive-by posting, and I've been seeing a lot of them lately.

WLJ

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #80 on: April 05, 2019, 11:44:21 AM »
Article says they fought the anti-stall software but doesn't say if they did, or at least try, turn it off as shown in Mentour's video.
I should note the difference, in my mind at least, between saying our equipment played a role and saying our equipment caused

Quote

(CNN) - Boeing admitted its equipment played a role in two plane crashes that killed a combined 346 people.

CNN obtained a 33-page preliminary report from Ethiopian investigators. It details how pilots fought the plane's automated anti-stall software for nearly the entire 6-minute flight.
Boeing acknowledges its software’s role in plane crashes that killed hundreds
http://www.wave3.com/2019/04/05/boeing-acknowledges-flight-control-systems-role-plane-crashes-that-killed-hundreds/
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 12:42:42 PM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2019, 11:51:30 AM »
In some venues, it's called a drive-by posting, and I've been seeing a lot of them lately.

... and stay off his lawn!

Brad
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zahc

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2019, 01:39:57 PM »
Very interesting post from former Boeing employee, sorry if it's already been posted.

https://www.satcom.guru/2019/04/stabilizer-trim-loads-and-range.html?m=1

Nobody is talking about the change to the trim cutout switches. The old plane had a separate cutout switch for automatic trim systems, so automatic trim could be disabled but you could still manually move the trim via electric motor. The new plane did away with the separate ability to disable automatic trim. On the new plane, the only thing you can do is disable the electric trim motors completely, leaving only the manual, cable-driven trim wheels to adjust the trim. And according to the article, when trim is far out if whack it's very hard to turn the manual hand-wheels or even impossible even with two people trying to turn them at the same time.

It's like Boeing bent over backwards to make this as bad as possible.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2019, 04:57:01 PM »
Very interesting post from former Boeing employee, sorry if it's already been posted.

https://www.satcom.guru/2019/04/stabilizer-trim-loads-and-range.html?m=1

Nobody is talking about the change to the trim cutout switches. The old plane had a separate cutout switch for automatic trim systems, so automatic trim could be disabled but you could still manually move the trim via electric motor. The new plane did away with the separate ability to disable automatic trim. On the new plane, the only thing you can do is disable the electric trim motors completely, leaving only the manual, cable-driven trim wheels to adjust the trim. And according to the article, when trim is far out if whack it's very hard to turn the manual hand-wheels or even impossible even with two people trying to turn them at the same time.

It's like Boeing bent over backwards to make this as bad as possible.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/03/et302-used-the-cut-out-switches-to-stop-mcas/

A 737 captain for a major European airline tried it in a simulator and crashed. He had a video up, but he has since taken it down. Apparently somewhere in the checklist it says to increase thrust, which is actually the WORST thing you could do in a 737 Max, because (a) the increased thrust tries to push the nose up, and that's what the MCAS is trying to counteract; and (b) when the airspeed increases, the forces acting on the stabilizer get so high that it's impossible for the pilots to manually crank those wheels to adjust the trim with no electrical power.

Boeing REALLY blew it on this design.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Air travel
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2019, 10:48:58 AM »
The following is from a friend in Europe who has been following this rather closely:

Quote
In such a scenario pilots of older -200 planes were told they had to PUSH on the yoke momentarily, let the plane lower its nose, as the other pilot worked the manual trim, then regain some pitch (lift the nose) to restore attitude, then repeat. Over and over and over. Trimming would gradually get easier, as the horizontal stabilizer returns to a more neutral position.

According to Mentour, this information is still in the 'NG' plane's manual, but is no longer in the Quick Reference Handbook that pilots have on board, and isn't being taught much, if at all. So the pilots in the doomed plane wouldn't have heard of it.

It's one of those "yeah it's bad, but it can't happen so don't worry about it" kind of thing...

However, Mentour also said that for the Ethiopian pilots, lowering the nose deliberately to make trim possible, wasn't an option: they were already just 1000 feet above the ground.

That the manual trim didn't work was exactly what Mentour found in his simulator setup, in that deleted video. The finding was so powerful, he then decided to pull the video...

"Mentour" refers to the 737 NG pilot I referred to in the preceding post. He has a Youtube channel about aviation under the name Mentour Pilot, and he has done a number of videos on this situation.
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