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Author Topic: Air travel  (Read 2017 times)
Fly320s
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« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2019, 03:23:53 AM »

I believe Sully said that in reference to the first officerĺs whopping 200 hours of total time.

Sully has a very high opinion of himself, and a low opinion of everyone else.

I thought I read that the FO had 200 hours in the 737, not total.  That is still fairly low, but enough to know how to fly it.   It is possible that the MCAS did not disengage as it should have.
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zahc
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« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2019, 07:19:41 AM »

New article:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/?amp=1

Sounds like a Boeing/FAA boondoggle, plane and simple. Being an engineer myself, I know how things like this get shoved through due to bad management and in some cases, bad engineers, who usually end up teaming up on horrible ideas like this.

mgmt: Omg we will lose orders to Airbus! What shall we do??
eng: design a new plane to compete, like we've been saying for decades
mgmt: but it's too late for that now! Spending all that capital would have forced us to cut the dividend! We need something fast! Can't we hang 787 engines on it?
eng: well you could hang 787 engines on it, but it's already too low for the current engines, since we designed it in the 60s and all. We had to redesign the current engines as it is.
mgmt: Make it happen! We need doers not complainers!
*good engineers all distance themselves voluntarily or involuntarily to non-boondoggle projects*
bad eng: I known how we can do it. We will hack bandaid control system. I did something like this with python once on my raspberry pi home automation system.
mgmt: that's the spirit! you are in charge!
eng [from distance]: if you do that you will need a new type rating, and if customers need a new type rating anyway they are still going to buy Airbuses because they aren't 50 years old...as we've been saying....
mgmt: [pivot to compliance people] Is that true?
compliance: yes, definitely
mgmt: that's not going to work for us. make it happen!
[competent compliance people are distanced]
bad compliance person: I don't think this is necessarily going to require a new type rating. After all [contrived, plausible-sounding reasons]
mgmt: that's the spirit! You are in charge. Good thing we found the talent we need to be competitive within our exceptional talent pool!. I knew those new hiring initiatives would pay off! Let's do a early retirement plan to get some of these old guys out of here. Don't know what we are paying them so much for anyway.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 07:33:00 AM by zahc » Report to moderator   Logged

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Fly320s
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« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2019, 08:31:11 AM »

Wow.  That is a damning article.  Boeing and the FAA are going to pay big time for their lack of oversight.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2019, 10:58:33 AM »


I thought I read that the FO had 200 hours in the 737, not total.  That is still fairly low, but enough to know how to fly it.   It is possible that the MCAS did not disengage as it should have.

I don't remember where I saw the 200 hours number, but it was my impression that it referred to total hours.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2019, 11:04:23 AM »


Good grief!

Quote
The safety analysis:

  • Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.
  • Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplaneĺs nose downward.
  • Assessed a failure of the system as one level below ôcatastrophic.ö But even that ôhazardousö danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor Ś and yet thatĺs how it was designed.
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230RN
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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2019, 11:32:06 AM »

"Two is one, and one is none."
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The Leftist agenda thrives on stressed systems. 

Reminds you of a disease, doesn't it?
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2019, 11:46:43 AM »

Once again, Trump in his bull-in-the-china-shop way was correct. Modern aircraft have become too complex. More importantly, the FAA abdicated its responsibilities and allowed the fox to guard the hen house. Heads should roll at the FAA over this.

In e-mails to a friend who is an aviation buff, I have argued that the 737 Max should have required separate certification as an aircraft type rather than being treated as in incremental update of the 737 NG type certification. I think this article makes that point abundantly clear. The fact that the FAA didn't require this illustrates all too plainly that the industry (meaning Boeing) has too much control over the agency that is charged with ensuring (:cough:  :cough:) aircraft safety.
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MillCreek
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« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2019, 01:29:18 PM »

Gosh damn, Zahc.  You sure sound as if you have up close and personal experience with how things work.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2019, 01:42:35 PM »

Gosh damn, Zahc.  You sure sound as if you have up close and personal experience with how things work.

All that's missing is the pointy-haired boss ...
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RocketMan
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« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2019, 06:34:42 AM »

The fact that the MCAS system was given major control authority and only utilizes a single AoA sensor is absolutely unbelievable to me.
Who the hell ever thought that was a good idea?  It should be a multi-sensor voting system at the very least.
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ôDonĺt be so open-minded that your brains fall out.ö - G.K. Chesterton

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

"Somebody got up on the wrong side of the apocalypse."
Fly320s
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« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2019, 06:43:39 AM »

The fact that the MCAS system was given major control authority and only utilizes a single AoA sensor is absolutely unbelievable to me.
Who the hell ever thought that was a good idea?  It should be a multi-sensor voting system at the very least.

I completely agree.

There will/should be some heads rolling at Boeing and the FAA.
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zahc
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« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2019, 08:52:37 AM »

I completely agree.

There will/should be some heads rolling at Boeing and the FAA.

We only know about this because there were not one but two crashes. How many other systems are just as bogus, but just haven't caused a problem yet? If there had not been the crashes, and/or the crashes had been pinned on pilot error or something, this would not be getting fixed, so I'm sure there are other bogosities lurking.
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MillCreek
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« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2019, 09:03:13 AM »

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

An article by the well-respected aeronautics reporter for the Seattle Times.  There are issues for both the FAA and Boeing.
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Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2019, 09:35:56 AM »

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

An article by the well-respected aeronautics reporter for the Seattle Times.  There are issues for both the FAA and Boeing.

I can't get past the pay wall. Is this the same article linked in post #51?
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Fly320s
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« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2019, 11:16:11 AM »

I can't get past the pay wall. Is this the same article linked in post #51?

Yes it is.
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Jamisjockey
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« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2019, 07:52:22 AM »

Wow.  That is a damning article.  Boeing and the FAA are going to pay big time for their lack of oversight.

Nothing will happen, aside from a few firings and maybe a fine against Boeing.


And yes, the agency has become too cozy with the industry to effectively regulate it.
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JD

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230RN
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« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2019, 09:00:12 AM »

Possibly worth reviewing, not to muddy the waters...

Older models of "737" crashing due to suspected loss of rudder or other tailplane control:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185

Quote
The Seattle Times devoted a series of 37 articles to Boeing 737 loss of control malfunctions.[21] The accident occurred in the middle of a controversy over the NTSB's role in accidents caused by the rudder control unit.[22]

In the subject Silk Air crash, it was thought that the pilot possibly committed suicide, but apparently this issue was never really resolved.

Quote
Date
19 December 1997

Summary
Cause disputed:
>Deliberate crash ľ Pilot suicide (NTSB)
>Inconclusive evidence to determine cause (NTSC)
>Loss of control due to rudder malfunction (L.A. Superior Court)

I'm thinkin' them things need better fletching.
 
Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 09:55:35 AM by 230RN » Report to moderator   Logged

The Leftist agenda thrives on stressed systems. 

Reminds you of a disease, doesn't it?
dogmush
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« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2019, 06:53:51 AM »

It should be noted that, despite similar names, a 737-300 and a 737 MAX 8 are not the same aircraft.  I doubt they share many, if any, control parts.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2019, 10:15:44 AM »

I think somewhere between the 737-300 and the 737-800 there was at least one new type certificate issued, if not two. The problem is (IMHO) that the Max series is sufficiently different from the preceding "New Generation" series that the Max should have gotten a new type certificate -- but that would have meant pilots would have to go through type rating for the new type, and Boeing wanted to market the Max series as a minor change within the same type in order to help persuade airlines to buy the 737 rather than an Airbus.
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French G.
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« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2019, 07:57:55 AM »

200 is plenty! I once quizzed a USMC butterbar about his shiny V-22. So how many hours do you have? 50. Cool, so what platform were you flying before Ospreys? This is my first command.   ...  But I have about 50 simulator hours too! Very helpful Butters, very helpful.

On single sensor, I recall going through tech info on the Harrier over such. Can't remember if it was an AOA sensor or I think more possibly one relating to engine inlet air temp. The phrase that pays is "uncommanded throttle roll back." It liked to do it in a landing hover.
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AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.
230RN
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« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2019, 08:15:26 AM »

It should be noted that, despite similar names, a 737-300 and a 737 MAX 8 are not the same aircraft.  I doubt they share many, if any, control parts.

That's why I put "737" in quotes.  While they may not share individual parts, one could start suspicioning there was something generically, conceptually goofy back there.  Note the "37 articles" written on some problems.

For all we know, one guy at Boeing could be using radians for pitch angle, and the other guy is using artillery degrees.  I'm only half-kidding here, but note the possible control surface excursion in one test was "four times" what was expected.

Remember the "kilometers versus miles" error in that space mission failure?  (Or yards versus meters or whatever the hell mixup there was.)

So crap like that can certainly occur, even at $150,000 per year.  Not saying that's the actual cause here, but offering a half-assed example of how major stupid snafus can happen.

And as zahc said,

We only know about this because there were not one but two crashes. How many other systems are just as bogus, but just haven't caused a problem yet? If there had not been the crashes, and/or the crashes had been pinned on pilot error or something, this would not be getting fixed, so I'm sure there are other bogosities lurking.


Like I said, it seems like them airplanes could use better fletching.

Terry, groundlubber, 230RN
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The Leftist agenda thrives on stressed systems. 

Reminds you of a disease, doesn't it?
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2019, 09:02:39 AM »


Remember the "kilometers versus miles" error in that space mission failure?  (Or yards versus meters or whatever the hell mixup there was.)


How about pounds versus kilograms? Read up on the "Gimli Glider" to see why that might be important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
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WLJ
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« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2019, 06:55:22 AM »

How to override the system

Runaway Stabilizer!! How to stop MCAS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixM_cwSLcQ
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230RN
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« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2019, 08:06:53 AM »

(22:57)

Short version?
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The Leftist agenda thrives on stressed systems. 

Reminds you of a disease, doesn't it?
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2019, 01:28:38 PM »

(22:57)

Short version?

Short version?

Co-pilot: Help! The horizontal stabilizer is out of control. What do I do?

Pilot: Turn the switch to "OFF."
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