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cordex
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« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2019, 09:35:06 AM »

It's my understanding that Trump told some people to do things that would have almost certainly been obstruction if they had actually obeyed.  He's quick to lash about and does not consider his actions.  As far as obstruction existing in absence of a crime, yes, that is a thing.

My best read is that Trump was justifiably upset about being endlessly investigated for something he didn't do.  Because of that frustration he talked about and allegedly even tried to terminate the investigation administratively.  Had he actually done that it would have been worthy of an obstruction charge but because people refused to comply he was barely protected from crossing that line.

Trump is no lily white hero.  He's a jerk that goes off half-cocked and doesn't think before he acts.  Sometimes he makes good decisions and sometimes his decisions suck.  I'll give him credit for the good things he accomplishes but I'm not about to get sucked into defending everything he says or does just because people I don't like constantly attack him.
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WLJ
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« Reply #151 on: May 30, 2019, 10:28:49 AM »

Yeah, but he's our jerk    laugh
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MikeB
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« Reply #152 on: May 30, 2019, 10:35:18 AM »

It's my understanding that Trump told some people to do things that would have almost certainly been obstruction if they had actually obeyed.  He's quick to lash about and does not consider his actions.  As far as obstruction existing in absence of a crime, yes, that is a thing.

My best read is that Trump was justifiably upset about being endlessly investigated for something he didn't do.  Because of that frustration he talked about and allegedly even tried to terminate the investigation administratively.  Had he actually done that it would have been worthy of an obstruction charge but because people refused to comply he was barely protected from crossing that line.

Trump is no lily white hero.  He's a jerk that goes off half-cocked and doesn't think before he acts.  Sometimes he makes good decisions and sometimes his decisions suck.  I'll give him credit for the good things he accomplishes but I'm not about to get sucked into defending everything he says or does just because people I don't like constantly attack him.

I wonĺt disagree with your last paragraph. I donĺt think some of what he supposedly requested like firing Mueller would actually be obstruction. Itĺs not like someone wouldnĺt replace Mueller. Mueller arguably should have recused himself. He also should have been reigned in or fired for hiring Weismann and the gang of Hillary supporters and sycophants he hired for his staff. All legitimate reasons to fire him. Iĺm not sure how Mueller and Weismann even have law licenses anymore.

Hopefully Barr will actually get to the bottom of some of the shenanigans that proceeded this Ĺinvestigationĺ.
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cordex
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« Reply #153 on: May 30, 2019, 10:39:48 AM »

I wonĺt disagree with your last paragraph. I donĺt think some of what he supposedly requested like firing Mueller would actually be obstruction. Itĺs not like someone wouldnĺt replace Mueller. Mueller arguably should have recused himself. He also should have been reigned in or fired for hiring Weismann and the gang of Hillary supporters and sycophants he hired for his staff. All legitimate reasons to fire him. Iĺm not sure how Mueller and Weismann even have law licenses anymore.

Hopefully Barr will actually get to the bottom of some of the shenanigans that proceeded this Ĺinvestigationĺ.
Sure, Trump had the theoretical authority to fire Mueller, but to fire him in an attempt to shut down the investigation or to influence it in his favor would have been obstruction.
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MikeB
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« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2019, 10:57:09 AM »

Sure, Trump had the theoretical authority to fire Mueller, but to fire him in an attempt to shut down the investigation or to influence it in his favor would have been obstruction.

Only if it was to shutdown the investigation or influence it. Not if it was a justified firing. Mueller did deserve to be fired. His last statements just prove it. He basically ended his investigation by saying I canĺt prove heĺs guilty, but he needs to prove heĺs innocent.. That isnĺt how our justice system works.

Plus Muellerĺs theory on obstruction seems to come down to he thought about or wanted to fire me so that is obstruction. In Muellerĺs world we have thought crimes now?
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WLJ
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« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2019, 12:39:48 PM »

Looks like Pelosi is dragging FB into this now

Quote

    .@SpeakerPelosi on Facebook: "I was giving them the benefit of the doubt on Russiaůbut clearly they wittingly were accomplices and enablers of false information to go out across Facebook." pic.twitter.com/8Ev7M1MYRK

    Ś CSPAN (@cspan) May 29, 2019

Nancy Pelosi: Facebook ĹAccomplicesĺ in Spreading Russian Fake News
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/29/nancy-pelosi-facebook-accomplices-in-spreading-russian-fake-news/
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DittoHead
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« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2019, 12:52:31 PM »

It really isn't the prosecutor's job to exonerate someone. 
This is true, and yet people think Mueller DID exonerate him when the report explicitly stated otherwise.
Cathy Garnaat, a Republican who supported Amash and the president said she was upset about Amashĺs position but wanted to hear his reasoning. She said that she will definitely support Trump in 2020 but that Tuesday night was the first time she had heard that the Mueller report didnĺt completely exonerate the president.

ôI was surprised to hear there was anything negative in the Mueller report at all about President Trump. I hadnĺt heard that before," she said. "Iĺve mainly listened to conservative news and I hadnĺt heard anything negative about that report and President Trump has been exonerated."
shocked
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MikeB
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« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2019, 02:43:12 PM »

This is true, and yet people think Mueller DID exonerate him when the report explicitly stated otherwise. shocked

Well the report did exonerate him as much as any prosecutor would exonerate anyone on the question of collusion with Russia.

What they then did was put together a bunch of questionable theories on how he might have obstructed justice in the second section.

As for Amash, as a supposed libertarian I question why he is so concerned about questionable theories on obstruction that I donĺt find credible as a libertarian while seemingly ambivalent to real credible issues with the spying by our intelligence services under the previous administrations. Iĺd have more respect for his opinion if he was at least consistent. He appears to have ulterior motives. If he was a true libertarian he would consider anything after the illegal spying to be fruit of the poisonous tree and the entire investigation to be a violation of constitutional protections.
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DittoHead
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« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2019, 03:18:10 PM »

As for Amash, as a supposed libertarian I question why he is so concerned about questionable theories on obstruction that I donĺt find credible as a libertarian while seemingly ambivalent to real credible issues with the spying by our intelligence services under the previous administrations. Iĺd have more respect for his opinion if he was at least consistent. He appears to have ulterior motives. If he was a true libertarian he would consider anything after the illegal spying to be fruit of the poisonous tree and the entire investigation to be a violation of constitutional protections.
https://reason.com/2019/05/30/unlike-president-donald-trump-justin-amash-actually-fights-against-fisa-surveillance-abuse/
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MikeB
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« Reply #159 on: May 30, 2019, 03:41:15 PM »


Really Reason? That site has gone over the top against Trump. Most libertarians donĺt take it seriously anymore.

That article ignores real changes to Section 702. This is typical of many Reason articles over the last couple years. They are so anti-Trump that they ignore reality in favor of propaganda. I can barely take most of their articles seriously especially this last year. Do I think changes should have gone further on section 702, yes. Trump can only sign or veto things put on his desk though. And once again a true libertarian wouldnĺt care if Trump supported an expansion of spying or not, it would still be wrong if not constitutional. Yes schadenfreude is entertaining, I donĺt let it drive my principles.

Besides this just again proves Amash is not serious. He is saying to someone questioning his stand now that even though he is fine with the abuses now he voted against them in the past ... B fing S. He has an agenda and doesnĺt care about principles, itĺs obvious.

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Ron
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« Reply #160 on: May 30, 2019, 03:55:02 PM »

Trump practices realpolitik.

Amash practices ideological purity.

One gets things done and the other loses gracefully.

If Amash and his Democrat allies prevail the ratchet towards a civil war clicks much to dangerously close to happening than I would ever want to see.

There arenĺt any good options, yet I cannot imagine any scenario where following the lead of Nadler, Schumer and Pelosi pursuing the destruction of this presidency is the preferable option.
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fistful
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« Reply #161 on: May 30, 2019, 04:50:36 PM »

This is true, and yet people think Mueller DID exonerate him when the report explicitly stated otherwise. shocked

Oh, please. The notion that conservative media hasn't covered the negatives of the report is laughable, but people who don't pay attention will only get what is stressed; not the details. That's hardly a reason to exercise your shocked face.

It is factually true, and inarguable, that the report exonerated Trump. He was clearly exonerated from the main allegation, which was collusion with Russia. While it didn't exonerate him on obstruction, it led to such an exoneration by the AG, for whom the report was drafted. If you don't understand that, maybe you're the one who's not getting it.
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Ron
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« Reply #162 on: May 30, 2019, 06:17:30 PM »

What crime did Trump commit?

Not just the word, the allegation, ôobstructionö but what did he actually do that rises to being guilty of obstruction?

Mueller sure didnĺt spell it out very clearly.

You can read the news for days on end and never actually find out what this supposed crime entails.

A lot of Trump said this that or the other. Nothing actionable that Iĺve seen so far.






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WLJ
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« Reply #163 on: May 30, 2019, 06:45:14 PM »

That's it?  After all this that's it?
Cue the sad trombone

Quote

    46 Democrats and 1 Republican.

    The full list of House members who favor starting an impeachment inquiry against President Trump: https://t.co/991pM1312u

    Ś MSNBC (@MSNBC) May 30, 2019
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2019/05/30/thats-it-number-of-house-reps-for-trump-impeachment-not-nearly-enough-to-make-resistance-dreams-come-true/

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fistful
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« Reply #164 on: May 30, 2019, 09:00:34 PM »

Now that's funny. Say what you will about Nancy. She keeps them line when she wants to.
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DittoHead
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« Reply #165 on: May 31, 2019, 04:04:25 AM »

What crime did Trump commit?

Not just the word, the allegation, ôobstructionö but what did he actually do that rises to being guilty of obstruction?

Mueller sure didnĺt spell it out very clearly.

You can read the news for days on end and never actually find out what this supposed crime entails.

A lot of Trump said this that or the other. Nothing actionable that Iĺve seen so far.

Did you read the Mueller report Huh? That would be the place to look  
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Ron
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« Reply #166 on: May 31, 2019, 04:08:29 AM »

Did you read the Mueller report Huh? That would be the place to look  

Iĺm not a lawyer, why donĺt you spell it out simply for me?
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Scout26
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« Reply #167 on: May 31, 2019, 04:32:46 AM »

It's my understanding that Trump told some people to do things that would have almost certainly been obstruction if they had actually obeyed.  He's quick to lash about and does not consider his actions.  As far as obstruction existing in absence of a crime, yes, that is a thing.

My best read is that Trump was justifiably upset about being endlessly investigated for something he didn't do.  Because of that frustration he talked about and allegedly even tried to terminate the investigation administratively.  Had he actually done that it would have been worthy of an obstruction charge but because people refused to comply he was barely protected from crossing that line.

Trump is no lily white hero.  He's a jerk that goes off half-cocked and doesn't think before he acts.  Sometimes he makes good decisions and sometimes his decisions suck.  I'll give him credit for the good things he accomplishes but I'm not about to get sucked into defending everything he says or does just because people I don't like constantly attack him.

The key is at what point did Mueller realize that there was no collusion.  At that point the investigation should have ended.  The other thing that I heard a lawyer friend of mine mention is that Mueller never should have written the second section.  "The Government only speaks in court." was what he said.  If there is not enough evidence to charge them with a crime, then Government should never come out and say "Person X almost did this."  Simply because it does not give the accused Due Process.  Which is what Mueller did here.  If he thought that Trump committed a crime, but was only protected by OLC guidance, he should have had that conversation with Barr and then made that clear in his report.  BUT, he told Barr that the OLC guidance did not apply as Mueller didn't think Trump's actions/statements/tweets rose to the level of obstruction.*



*- I will point out at the Mueller was able to interview, at length, any and all members of the administration, and put the screws to Flynn, Manafort, Gates, Cohen, Papandopolis, et al.  The investigation continued unhindered for 2 years.  And while I agree with Cordex's last paragraph, I do think that initial premise of the investigation was trainted.  Carter Page did not work for the government, nor did he have a clearance, nor access to classified material, nor was suspected of passing classified materials, therefore there NEVER should have been FISA warrant issued.   And the Steele dossier was never vetted, nor was the FISA court provided with the contrary information (Funded via Hillary/DNC via a cutout law firm) along with the various conflicts of interest.   Plus, no crime was ever specified for Mueller to investigate other then Russian interference in the election.  The actual amount of Russian "interference" is laughable in light of sound and fury in an attempt to tie Trump and the campaign to Russia.   
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makattak
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« Reply #168 on: May 31, 2019, 04:41:46 AM »

The key is at what point did Mueller realize that there was no collusion.  At that point the investigation should have ended.  The other thing that I heard a lawyer friend of mine mention is that Mueller never should have written the second section.  "The Government only speaks in court." was what he said.  If there is not enough evidence to charge them with a crime, then Government should never come out and say "Person X almost did this."  Simply because it does not give the accused Due Process.  Which is what Mueller did here.  If he thought that Trump committed a crime, but was only protected by OLC guidance, he should have had that conversation with Barr and then made that clear in his report.  BUT, he told Barr that the OLC guidance did not apply as Mueller didn't think Trump's actions/statements/tweets rose to the level of obstruction.*



*- I will point out at the Mueller was able to interview, at length, any and all members of the administration, and put the screws to Flynn, Manafort, Gates, Cohen, Papandopolis, et al.  The investigation continued unhindered for 2 years.  And while I agree with Cordex's last paragraph, I do think that initial premise of the investigation was trainted.  Carter Page did not work for the government, nor did he have a clearance, nor access to classified material, nor was suspected of passing classified materials, therefore there NEVER should have been FISA warrant issued.   And the Steele dossier was never vetted, nor was the FISA court provided with the contrary information (Funded via Hillary/DNC via a cutout law firm) along with the various conflicts of interest.   Plus, no crime was ever specified for Mueller to investigate other then Russian interference in the election.  The actual amount of Russian "interference" is laughable in light of sound and fury in an attempt to tie Trump and the campaign to Russia.   

I actually laugh out loud when a Democrat* says "THERE WERE SERIOUS ATTEMPTS TO INFLUENCE OUR ELECTIONS IN 2016 AND WE SHOULD ALL BE ANGRY ABOUT THAT!!!"

Yeah. Of course there were. And they were, at best, on par with the efforts in 2018, 2014, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2006, 2004, 2002, 2000, 1998, 1996, 1994, 1992, 1990, 1988, 1986...

Foreign governments, friend, foe, and other, ALL try to influence our election, legitimately and illegitimately. You're just pretending it mattered in 2016 because a SURE THING!Ö lost and you don't want to admit your candidate was possibly the worst you could have chosen.



*pick any of them, they are all doing it
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DittoHead
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« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2019, 05:06:32 AM »

Iĺm not a lawyer, why donĺt you spell it out simply for me?
I'm not a lawyer either and while I may be simple, the law isn't. If you just want simple, listen to Trump. Smiley

If you don't think the news is doing a good job of explaining something, go to the source material.
Obviously that's not always possible but in this case there's a whole report dedicated to the exact thing you're asking about.

If you want a shortcut, go here and search for the text " Obstructive act." as that gives a nice explanation of the events that were investigated and how they may (or may not) qualify.
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Ron
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« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2019, 05:22:21 AM »

If there was obstruction we would all know what it was and impeachment would be occurring already.

My analysis doesnĺt require me to trust any sources.

Iĺm just observing how things are playing out.

If there was a case against Trump we would be getting hit over the head daily with the sordid details.

The report is out and itĺs obviously not obvious how he supposedly obstructed the investigation.

The report is out, there was no evidence of Russian collusion, that was the finding.
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Scout26
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« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2019, 06:16:21 AM »

Pat Buchanan has some very good questions.


Quote
If, after two years, Mueller found "insufficient evidence" of collusion by Trump, what was the compelling evidence that justified launching the investigation of collusion during the Obama era?

Did that earlier "evidence" turn out to be false allegations and lies?

When did Mueller discover that George Papadopoulos and Carter Page were not agents of the GRU or KGB?

When did Mueller decide there was no collusion or conspiracy?

Was it not until this spring? Or has Mueller known for a good while there was no conspiracy?

Why are these questions important? Because the investigation itself, leaving as it did a cloud over the legitimacy of the president, was damaging not only to Trump but also to the nation. As long as half the country believed Trump was an agent or asset or blackmail victim of Putin, the nation could not come together.

Did Mueller feel no obligation to clear up that false impression as swiftly and fully as possible, if, indeed, he believes it is false?

When did Mueller discover the Steele dossier was the product of a dirt-diving operation, financed by the Clinton campaign and fabricated by a Trump-hating ex-chief of British intelligence with long ties both to former agents of Russia's FSB and James Comey's FBI?

Did Mueller ever suspect that the investigation he inherited was a takedown operation, instigated by enemies of Trump who were determined that he never become president or, if he did, that his tenure would be short?
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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
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WLJ
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« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2019, 07:47:57 AM »

Now that's funny. Say what you will about Nancy. She keeps them line when she wants to.


When she wants to

Nancy Pelosi Assures Jimmy Kimmel: Weĺll Be Ready to Impeach Donald Trump Before 2020
https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2019/05/31/nancy-pelosi-assures-jimmy-kimmel-well-be-ready-to-impeach-donald-trump-before-2020/

Quote
ôHow do you explain that to kids in the hood, when they are approached by law enforcement and they say ĹI didnĺt realize that weĺre supposed to know this or that,ĺ Well theyĺre supposed to know,ö Pelosi said. ôBut these very wealthy people with high priced lawyers can get away with saying I didnĺt know.ö

Guess you can blame any rise in crime in the hood on Trump now because ^^^^  Face Palm!
I would bet good money 90% of the "kids" in the hood have no clue or care who the POTUS is.
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« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2019, 08:50:10 AM »

 grin

"While we recognize that the man did not actually steal any horses...he is obviously guilty of trying to resist being hanged for it" - David Horowitz

 Face Palm!
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« Reply #174 on: May 31, 2019, 10:00:44 AM »

I suppose just to clear everything up. Trump committed obstruction by saying mean things about Mueller and in general for being a meanypants poopyhead. I think that is what the Dems have on him. Obvious grounds for impeachment. I now agree with Amash and the Dems, he has to be impeached.
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