Author Topic: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional  (Read 2361 times)

Fly320s

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Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« on: April 22, 2019, 09:37:13 PM »
According the the 6th US Circuit Court of Appeals (MI, OH, KY, TN).

"unreasonable search"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3DAJOYkByI

I find it funny, but I approve of the ruling.   :rofl: [ar15]

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MechAg94

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2019, 10:43:14 PM »
I am surprised chalking is considered a form of warrant less search. 

I am sure there are other ways the city could both make money and provide more parking. 
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WLJ

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2019, 10:45:39 PM »
First I've heard of this. Is it common?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2019, 10:57:39 PM »
It is (or was) common.

I agree with Fly320s. If a space has a meter, as long as I keep feeding the meter I should be able to park there all day. There is no public safety nexus to requiring that metered parking spaces be "churned" throughout the day.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2019, 11:13:53 PM »
First I've heard of this. Is it common?

Gilbert PD here in AZ would do it at some of the bars in town.  City Hall still thinks of Gilbert as a sleepy Mormon farm town, despite its 250,000 person headcount (and almost all the farms are now KB subdivisions).

I've been chalked at the Dos Gringos bar near my house.  From what I hear, anyone with 2 or more chalk lines will get pulled over about 1/4 mile from the bar.  They supposedly will chalk the tires of the entire parking lot every hour.
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Ben

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2019, 09:37:19 AM »
Chalking was always a big thing in Santa Barbara when I lived there. My office was at the harbor, which was also in the tourist area (so revenue enhancement), so the meter maid would be there every two hours or so (parking was 90min) chalking and ticketing. They also sometimes staked the place out for "chalk movers" - people who moved their cars from one spot to another right after getting chalked.

I always just paid the $100/yr for a parking permit, but a few of my cheaper coworkers that were enviros and only drove their car a few days a week, skipped the permit and would run timers on their phone to run out and move their cars. I'm pretty sure most of them paid more for parking (via tickets at $50/pop) than those of us who just sucked it up for the annual pass every January.
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MechAg94

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2019, 09:54:13 AM »
Gilbert PD here in AZ would do it at some of the bars in town.  City Hall still thinks of Gilbert as a sleepy Mormon farm town, despite its 250,000 person headcount (and almost all the farms are now KB subdivisions).

I've been chalked at the Dos Gringos bar near my house.  From what I hear, anyone with 2 or more chalk lines will get pulled over about 1/4 mile from the bar.  They supposedly will chalk the tires of the entire parking lot every hour.
Now that I can see being some sort of rights intrusion.  They aren't pulling you over for actually violating something, but rather because of marks on your tires.  I guess a group with a designated driver will get pulled over anyway.
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230RN

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2019, 11:32:23 AM »
I wonder if we can get that lady's lawyer to move to Colorado.

                  =D    >:D


Somehow, I wonder if chalking/ticketing could be held as "testifying against yourself."

Seems to me a clever silver-tongued lawyer could scramble the language around enough to successfully make that kind of defense.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 12:28:28 PM by 230RN »

TechMan

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2019, 01:14:16 PM »
First I've heard of this. Is it common?

Here in OH it is.
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HankB

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2019, 01:45:03 PM »
Hmmmm . . . and if suddenly a lot of cars had dozens of chalk marks on their tires?   >:D

I remember hearing about a case several decades ago when a motorist returning to his parked car saw an unidentified man in street clothes messing with his tire - he kicked the guy in the head, knocking him out cold. It turned out that unidentified man was a plainclothes officer. But the guy just got in his car and drove away, and "nobody didn't see nuttin."
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T.O.M.

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2019, 02:05:56 PM »
Here in OH it is.

Yes it is.  I'll be interested to see what they do where I am.  Downtown Merchants Association pays special duty rates to officers to walk around downtown, chalk tires, and write tickets for cars exceeding the 2 hour limit.  But like I read about this case, with technology the way it is, there are actually better ways to document the parking issues with no trespass on the vehicle at all.  Hell, a digital camera with a time stamp would do better, and without much expense.
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Firethorn

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2019, 02:31:05 PM »
Yes it is.  I'll be interested to see what they do where I am.  Downtown Merchants Association pays special duty rates to officers to walk around downtown, chalk tires, and write tickets for cars exceeding the 2 hour limit.  But like I read about this case, with technology the way it is, there are actually better ways to document the parking issues with no trespass on the vehicle at all.  Hell, a digital camera with a time stamp would do better, and without much expense.

A case of them not updating the process to keep with the times?

I can see it, a digital camera is still like $100 and you'd have to flip through the photos checking time stamps.

A chalk mark you can just walk down the street looking for marks on tires.

Fly320s

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2019, 05:33:17 PM »
A case of them not updating the process to keep with the times?

I can see it, a digital camera is still like $100 and you'd have to flip through the photos checking time stamps.

A chalk mark you can just walk down the street looking for marks on tires.

A couple of cameras mounted on poles, wired to some software that detects motion, should be able to track the cars.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2019, 11:19:07 PM »
Yes it is.  I'll be interested to see what they do where I am.  Downtown Merchants Association pays special duty rates to officers to walk around downtown, chalk tires, and write tickets for cars exceeding the 2 hour limit.  But like I read about this case, with technology the way it is, there are actually better ways to document the parking issues with no trespass on the vehicle at all.  Hell, a digital camera with a time stamp would do better, and without much expense.

Too easy to spoof. If I were a magistrate, I would never accept a cop's (or anyone else's) photo with a date and time stamp as proof of anything more than that whoever set up the camera knew how to turn on the date and time stamp function.
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Firethorn

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2019, 05:26:24 AM »
Too easy to spoof. If I were a magistrate, I would never accept a cop's (or anyone else's) photo with a date and time stamp as proof of anything more than that whoever set up the camera knew how to turn on the date and time stamp function.

Chalk marks are even less evidence.

That said, I don't think that mounting cameras on poles is going to be a long term solution.  Probably hit the ilfespan of the cameras if you install today, but in 5-10 years I figure self driving cars will be coming out, and that will be a real game changer when it comes to enforcement of all vehicular offenses.

To wit, you'll hardly ever be able to collect any money from violations.  If you hand out a ticket to the self-driving car, the maker will make it so the car doesn't do that anymore, and global update.  If they think the ticket was issued erroneously, they'll fight it for the principle of the matter.
If you try to ban them(in the local area), they'll hit you over the head with the safety improvements. 
Charge for parking?  People will simply have their cars drop them off then go somewhere to park for free(unless the miles to do so is more expensive than paying). 
Parking is time limited?  Car moves itself.
Speeding?  Running a red light?  Hah!  Expect to pay big bucks attempting to justify your ticket when the maker of the AI shows up with an excessive number of lawyers who have been prepping for just this fight and video showing that they didn't do it.

I remember the judge for the first speeding ticket involving a GPS tracker case still found the kid guilty on the assumption that he could have been speeding at the moment the cop radared him, if the kid accelerated(in a not very powerful car) like a sprint car then decelerated back to below the speed limit in just the 4 seconds between logging the speeds.  The parents had paid for the defense because, well, they installed the GPS tracker after a previous incident of speeding, the kid knew it was there, and the evidence they had was that the kid hadn't been speeding when the cop stopped him.

But it was a very pyrrhic victory for the city.  Besides the parents funding a good defense, the maker of the tracker sent their own assistance and expert witnesses.  So the city spent like 100 times the amount of the fine to convince one judge to still rule guilty.

The makers of GPS trackers took the Judge's reasoning into account and changed their tracking systems and logs a bit so that the judge couldn't say "maybe could have".  The police/cities have subsequently lost in court. 

I figure the same deal, but more so, with self driving cars.  Keep a rolling log of the sensors(including cameras) while it is operating.  If it's pulled over, bake the last half hour to hour of data into permanent storage.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 05:42:35 AM by Firethorn »

Ben

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2019, 08:27:07 AM »
While the numbers are likely small, one of the things I don't like about chalk, cameras, etc. is that the car is the criminal, not the driver. Loan your car to someone? The ticket on the windshield or in the mail is still going to you. While that is simply annoying for something like a parking ticket, speeding tickets lead to heftier fines and higher insurance.

Even if the person you loaned your car to is stand-up and takes responsibility, I have no idea how easy or hard it is to both prove you weren't the driver and to get that information through the system. Especially since this is almost always a local issue, and local governments vary widely.
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230RN

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2019, 10:05:39 AM »
Part of Ben's remarks:

Quote
...I have no idea how easy or hard it is to both prove you weren't the driver and to get that information through the system...

Related:  ran into that kind of problem already.  I got one of those plug-in nanny boxes which reported car's movement so you could review it on-line later. 

Found out that driving around in a King Sooper's crowded parking lot on a Saturday (handicapped spaces filled) looking for a parking space involved lots of sharp turns to get back and forth through the aisles and starts and stops which the nanny box reported as "aggressive driving."

I wrote letters complaining about that and some other erroneous or ridiculous reports (moderate braking to avoid tail-ending a yellow light, for example) all to no avail.  I finally unplugged the device and sent it back to the manufacturer with yet another complaint about how their software interpreted the car's (my) activities.

Pisonem.  Been driving for over twenty (maybe twenty five) years without a ticket or an accident which was my fault and now all of a sudden I'm an "aggressive driver."

Well, your software made me feel pretty aggressive, all right.

Up yours, nannybox.

I say, I say again, pisonem.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 10:21:27 AM by 230RN »

Hutch

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2019, 07:22:36 AM »
Hmmmm... an evil person could swat someone by chalking tires. 
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cordex

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2019, 08:38:27 AM »
Hmmmm... an evil person could swat someone by chalking tires. 
A less evil person could openly chalk all the tires.

230RN

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Re: Tire chalking by the parking police is unconstitutional
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2019, 02:40:23 AM »
Be funny if some tire mfr made tires with a couple dozen chalk marks molded into their tires.

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