Author Topic: Notre Dame is on Fire  (Read 6991 times)

HeroHog

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2019, 05:20:36 PM »
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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2019, 06:04:08 PM »
I just came in to post that. I suppose this truly is the end of Notre Dame then. There's no way a "contest" will produce anything that pays tribute to it, and I guess it was just to old white guy to say, "Lets try to restore the original building". Sad.

Is Notre Dame privately owned by the Catholic Church?  If so, they can tell everyone to pound ash.
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dogmush

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2019, 06:06:05 PM »
Is Notre Dame privately owned by the Catholic Church?  If so, they can tell everyone to pound ash.

My understanding is that it's owned by the French Gov.

zxcvbob

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2019, 06:15:47 PM »
I just came in to post that. I suppose this truly is the end of Notre Dame then. There's no way a "contest" will produce anything that pays tribute to it, and I guess it was just to old white guy to say, "Lets try to restore the original building". Sad.

I think they should add a minaret.  As a tribute to all the Muslims who didn't set the fire.   :facepalm:
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WLJ

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2019, 06:25:20 PM »
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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2019, 07:48:19 PM »
I don't think a contest implies anything untoward. Won't it just be more or less a competitive bidding process? Each firm tries to show how they can do it better, cheaper, with less inconvenience to traffic, etc? That doesn't mean the traditional design is up in the air, does it?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2019, 09:11:25 PM »
Unfortunately, that idiot, Macron, is talking not about restoring Notre Dame, but about making it "better." I'm afraid in this instance "contest" means just what it implies -- a competition to see who can devise the ugliest, most inappropriate design for the roof and the spire. That's who they'll choose.
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dogmush

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2019, 09:36:32 PM »
I understand the historical context, but the history is gone. Even if they put it back exactly as it was it'll be a reproduction,  not the historic building. The historic roof and spire are gone. G.O.N.E.

So who gives a damn what a government you aren't a subject of does to a church of a religion you aren't a member of?

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2019, 11:43:42 PM »
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K Frame

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2019, 11:53:02 PM »
"I understand the historical context, but the history is gone."

Balderdash.

Much of what was destroyed in the fire was itself replacements of original materials.

Many of the beams supporting the roof that burned were later replacements for beams that had rotted or become damaged.

The spire that was destroyed? An 1840s creation by Viollet-le-Duc, which replaced... nothing. There had never been a spire at that location until then.

The organ? It's been replaced many times over the centuries. The original organ was small and installed in the late 1300s, over 100 years after the cathedral was completed. That organ was replaced with a larger one in the 1400s, which itself was replaced in the 1730s. The current organ, which used pieces of the 1730s organ, was installed as part of Viollet-le-Duc's restoration and dedicated in 1868. That organ itself has been modified many times since.

The stained glass? Much of it was damaged by the fire, but survived and can be restored. But not all of it is original, either. The west rose window, which was created in the mid 1200s, was entirely removed and an entirely new window installed, again as part of Viollet-le-Duc's restoration work.

The south rose was damaged multiple times over the centuries and was also extensively rebuilt.

Much of the rest of the stained glass in the cathedral was installed over a period of centuries, including some in the 20th century.

Yes, much of the interior vaulting was damaged or destroyed, but the walls and the bell towers survived relatively unharmed. Those ARE original to the structure, so your claim that the history of Notre Dame is simply wrong.

Cathedrals aren't one and done, built and remaining in a static state. Most continue to evolve for the simple reason that time is not kind.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:06:11 AM by Mike Irwin »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2019, 11:54:07 PM »
I understand the historical context, but the history is gone. Even if they put it back exactly as it was it'll be a reproduction,  not the historic building. The historic roof and spire are gone. G.O.N.E.

So who gives a damn what a government you aren't a subject of does to a church of a religion you aren't a member of?

I'm an architect who has worked on restoration of historic buildings. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. When restoring historic buildings, the goal is to reproduce the design so that people can appreciate it for what it was. Not "Disneyland" reproduction, but restoration as accurately as possible. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is possibly THE most architecturally significant Gothic structures in the world. It was the cathedral that started the entire Gothic style, leading to other great cathedrals such as Amiens, Cologne, Chartres, Reims, and Milan (among others).

That's why I give a damn. Because it matters.
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K Frame

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2019, 12:01:35 AM »
Chartres...

Chartres was built in the late Romanesque style, not Gothic.

Chartres' north spire was destroyed in the 1500s and rebuilt in a late Gothic style, which is why the facade is unbalanced.

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K Frame

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2019, 12:03:13 AM »
My understanding is that it's owned by the French Gov.

Notre Dame is owned by the French government, but the Catholic Church has a perpetual right to use it.

That arrangement has led to many years of disagreements over who is responsible for footing the cost of necessary work.
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dogmush

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2019, 08:40:12 AM »
I'm an architect who has worked on restoration of historic buildings. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. When restoring historic buildings, the goal is to reproduce the design so that people can appreciate it for what it was. Not "Disneyland" reproduction, but restoration as accurately as possible. The Cathedral of Notre Dame is possibly THE most architecturally significant Gothic structures in the world. It was the cathedral that started the entire Gothic style, leading to other great cathedrals such as Amiens, Cologne, Chartres, Reims, and Milan (among others).

That's why I give a damn. Because it matters.

Except that as Mike points out more eloquently than I could, there's not a single "accurate" structure or plan to restore to.  It's going to be different.  The folks that own it (the french government) and the folks that worship in it (the Catholics) certainly have a right to decide how different and in what ways their building will be when repaired.

I just can't summon the angst about them fixing their church, especially since we haven't actually seen the designs yet.   

Ben

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2019, 09:00:40 AM »
Except that as Mike points out more eloquently than I could, there's not a single "accurate" structure or plan to restore to.  It's going to be different.  The folks that own it (the french government) and the folks that worship in it (the Catholics) certainly have a right to decide how different and in what ways their building will be when repaired.

I just can't summon the angst about them fixing their church, especially since we haven't actually seen the designs yet.    

My only dog in this fight is being a semi-practicing Catholic. However, as I think I understand Mike's points, yes, there were changes, but they were in keeping with the overall theme of the landmark. So yes, we need to wait to see what the contest produces, and if it's just minor tweaks, cool with me. If it's some kind of "inclusive and diverse" theme, then no, I'm not cool with it, whether it's any of my business or not.

To me, that's trying to rewrite history, just like removing "Tom Sawyer" from the library,or people destroying Confederate statues, or the Taliban destroying artwork (and pretty much anything else) that doesn't meet their social construct. I may not agree with something historical, but I don't want to see it destroyed or altered to meet the demands of social acceptability for one particular slice of time. History is there for us to learn from. We already have the victors in wars rewriting history. I hate to see that expanded from a "those who do not know their history..." point of view.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2019, 10:04:43 AM »
Except that as Mike points out more eloquently than I could, there's not a single "accurate" structure or plan to restore to.  It's going to be different.  The folks that own it (the french government) and the folks that worship in it (the Catholics) certainly have a right to decide how different and in what ways their building will be when repaired.


Most buildings of any age undergo changes over a period of years. In restoration work, the intent is to decide what point in the history of the building was the most significant point, and restore (insofar as possible) to that benchmark.

The problem with Notre Dame is that I'm pretty certain the people who worship there want to see it restored as closely as possible to what was there before the fire. It's Macron who wants to make it "better." One of the German cathedrals (Cologne, I think) was restored using a steel structure for the roof rather than timber for better fire resistance, but you can't see that from the outside. It was a logical trade-off, and I'm sure it wasn't a decision that was made without considerable debate. So it's "better," but not in the visible way that Macron seems to have in mind.

Notre Dame in Paris (many or the other French Gothic cathedrals are also named "Notre Dame") took roughly 200 years to build. Some of the other great European Gothic cathedrals took longer than that. In all of them, changes were made during the construction period. The builders were in contact with one another. As one found that certain techniques worked, those same techniques were often adopted at the others. Sometimes older work was torn out and replaced as a result of this. Eventually, though, construction (mostly) ended, and the cathedrals were in the configurations in which they have come to be known and revered. Revered not only as churches, but also as architectural and engineering treasures.

As an architect and an architectural historian, I can't feel good about anything but a restoration to the best degree of historic accuracy possible.
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dogmush

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2019, 12:20:08 PM »
Sooo....

Spire or no Spire?

HeroHog

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2019, 12:30:44 PM »
As a Catholic and one who appreciates historical architecture, I say it should be restored to what it was before the fire, cosmetically. Minor improvements for safety, sure, but keep it as close to what it was as possible. You don't "improve" art, do you? Would you fancy up the Mona Lisa to make it fit today's "standards" of "art?"
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zxcvbob

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #93 on: April 21, 2019, 12:36:22 PM »
Quote
The problem with Notre Dame is that I'm pretty certain the people who worship there want to see it restored as closely as possible to what was there before the fire. It's Macron who wants to make it "better." One of the German cathedrals (Cologne, I think) was restored using a steel structure for the roof rather than timber for better fire resistance, but you can't see that from the outside. It was a logical trade-off, and I'm sure it wasn't a decision that was made without considerable debate. So it's "better," but not in the visible way that Macron seems to have in mind.

Aren't wooden timbers more fire resistant than steel?  From what I remember from my engineering materials class, wooden beams maintain structural integrity for a long time, even as they burn (if you can even get them to ignite)  Steel quickly loses strength and fails.  OTOH, the wood beams provide fuel and the steel doesn't.
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HankB

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #94 on: April 21, 2019, 12:40:01 PM »
Maybe by "better" Macron means installing . . . sprinklers? Or other fireproofing materials?

Nah.

Probably has something in mind like including a bearded Buddha wearing a yarmulke with a rosary around his neck, reading a Koran while Ganeesh and Odin look over his shoulders . . . as a starting point.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2019, 12:44:36 PM »
Sooo....

Spire or no Spire?

The spire that collapsed in the fire dates to the mid-19th century. Designed by architect Eugene Viollet-le-Duc, it was taller than the original spire but was designed to be faithful to the original aesthetic. I've seen articles that say the spire was "added" in the 19th century. As far as I know, that is incorrect. In any event, the spire that was lost was in place for more than 150 years. It's the spire that appears in almost all photographs of Notre dame, and it's the only spire that anyone currently alive remembers. I think it should be restored as accurately as possible to what it was before the fire.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2019, 12:46:49 PM »
Aren't wooden timbers more fire resistant than steel?  From what I remember from my engineering materials class, wooden beams maintain structural integrity for a long time, even as they burn (if you can even get them to ignite)  Steel quickly loses strength and fails.  OTOH, the wood beams provide fuel and the steel doesn't.

Correct on all counts. Steel is noncombustible, but large timbers retain structural integrity longer than steel when exposed to heat. But ... a steel truss won't catch fire and burn.
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BobR

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2019, 11:35:32 PM »
Maybe by "better" Macron means installing . . . sprinklers? Or other fireproofing materials?

Nah.


I'm still hoping for a revolving restaurant on the roof, with a water/wine bar and sushi specials on Fridays.

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2019, 12:20:52 AM »
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K Frame

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Re: Notre Dame is on Fire
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2019, 08:13:05 AM »
Aren't wooden timbers more fire resistant than steel?  From what I remember from my engineering materials class, wooden beams maintain structural integrity for a long time, even as they burn (if you can even get them to ignite)  Steel quickly loses strength and fails.  OTOH, the wood beams provide fuel and the steel doesn't.


In something like a cathedral, if steel were to replace wood in the roof structure the whole building would become virtually fireproof.

Literally, the only thing that fueled the Notre Dame fire was the wooden roof and spire structure and perhaps some ancillary stuff that the contractors brought in for the work. During normal periods, there would be literally nothing to burn. The roof structure isn't like a house -- there's no furnishings, clothing, etc., in there to burn.
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