Author Topic: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?  (Read 795 times)

Hawkmoon

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Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« on: April 15, 2019, 11:24:51 PM »
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/apr/14/david-berger-marine-corps-commandant-nominee-told-/

A focus of the article is asking if the Marines are trying to take on too many roles/tasks for a relatively small force. I think that's a good question.

Quote
Not everyone buys the argument that the Marines should pull back from new missions.

“Any service that chooses not to engage in [cybercapabilities] will have its clock cleaned in the 21st century,” said Michael E. O’Hanlon, a senior defense fellow at the Brookings Institution. “You may not have an interest in cyberwar, but it probably has an interest in you.”

The reality of cyberwarfare can't be denied, but it's not like the Marines are our only military force. Why does each branch of the services have to have its very own geek squads? Why can't one service (and I would argue for the Army not because I was Army but simply because the Army is the largest branch and can therefore probably best accommodate a specialized group such as a cyber command) develop the cyber capability and then place the specialists with the other services on an attached basis? Knowing the way our branches all compete against one another, it seems to me that a single cyber command within one branch would eliminate a lot of counter-productive secrecy and in-fighting.

Let the Marines do what the Marines do best ... break things.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2019, 12:16:35 AM »
Why would the Marines need a Geek Squad if the Navy already has one?  Aren't they still the same department?
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Scout26

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2019, 03:04:42 AM »
I would argue that the Chair Force should be Geek Squad (and Space Force) Give the bombing and transport missions back to the Army.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 08:32:27 AM »
In my opinion, there is becoming too much redundancy in the .gov, much less .mil.  No offense meant in the least to our resident soldier/sailor, but why does the Army need it's own navy?  Why does each branch of the federal government have its own law enforcement agency, like the Department of Education SWAT team?  Seems to me that with some interagency/interservice cooperation (forced if necessary), a lot of tax dollars could be saved.
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Fly320s

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 09:48:30 AM »
a lot of tax dollars could be saved.

There's your answer.  Government is only interested in spending money, not saving money.
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Ben

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2019, 10:15:35 AM »
I would argue that the Chair Force should be Geek Squad (and Space Force) Give the bombing and transport missions back to the Army.

I agree. Space Force would be a good fit for it, and it would actually make Space Force a bit more viable.
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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2019, 10:30:47 PM »
Why would the Marines need a Geek Squad if the Navy already has one?  Aren't they still the same department?

I'm wondering it it's to enhance enlistments by our modern youth...  "Gee, expert computer training for free."  Also, to have a marketable skill when they get out besides breaking things.

Frank Castle

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 09:23:40 AM »
Quote
Why does each branch of the services have to have its very own geek squads?

logistics, where rarely at the same locations.

dogmush

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 11:33:11 AM »
In my opinion, there is becoming too much redundancy in the .gov, much less .mil. No offense meant in the least to our resident soldier/sailor, but why does the Army need it's own navy? Why does each branch of the federal government have its own law enforcement agency, like the Department of Education SWAT team?  Seems to me that with some interagency/interservice cooperation (forced if necessary), a lot of tax dollars could be saved.

None taken, and I can actually answer that question.  Without going in to really exhausting detail on US doctrine and service capabilities, the answer is that there isn't redundancy between the Navy, Army Watercraft, or, (even though you didn't mention it) Military Sealift Command.  The Navy focuses on Combatant craft, and direct support craft for the Combatant's.  What Landing Craft capability they have is limited, and embarked with the USMC Expeditionary Forces it supports.  It is also tilted heavily towards contested, short term landings.  (i.e. D-Day)  LCAC's, AMTRACKS, and 1600 series landing craft are not self sustaining and have pretty short ranges and times between refueling.  US Army Logistics Over The Shore (LOTS) capabilities is designed to sustain a force long term in uncontested, but austere environments. 2000 series LCU's and LSV's are designed to be self sustaining for weeks, and carry people, supplies and equipment from ports to remote bases, or from ocean going ships (MSC) to shore where there is no deepwater port or it's been damaged.

The capabilities are in separate services because of what the different watercraft missions support.  The Army Watercraft support an Army mission, and it makes sense to have them organic to the Sustainment Brigades that will need to use them.  


All of that to say that, yes, there is some redundancy in the .gov, but there are also often reasons things are done the way they are.  The soundbites and memes that everyone loves often don't communicate the subtleties of disparate missions.  Take the  DOE SWAT team.  Is it just using some of that sweet DHS funding?  Maybe.  Perhaps there is something specific about the warrants and crimes that DOE is using it on.  Sure FBI HRT could learn a new skillset, but there is only so many training hours in the day.  At some point it makes more sense to have a team dedicated to being very good at the one thing they do, rather than the FBI guys being sorta OK at a bunch of mission.  Does anyone here actually know what DOE SWAT's mission parameters are?

So back to the OP:  Should the USMC have their own Cyber branch?  Probably, but a small limited one.

Much of the Cyber War environment can, and should, be handled by the Army and Navy Cyber commands with their resources, and the power and equipment on the ships and facilities.  But as the battlespace evolves and weapons become more robotic there are real missions at the tactical level for cyber war.  The USMC company advancing 150 miles inland from landing might very well want a guy in the back of one of those tracks with the knowledge and gear to hack and disable any enemy drones that pop up.  Or someone that is monitoring the local EM spectrum to make sure no one is hacking and/or spoofing the Blue Force Trackers (or whatever the Marines end up using for that capability).  Or folks at the Battalion level that can detect and DF low power encrypted bursts (like Enemy data networks).  Stuff like that isn't well handled from hundreds of miles away by folks that don't speak Jarhead when info has to be passed quickly and clearly.

MillCreek

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 11:46:55 AM »
Dogmush, I like to learn something every day, and your explanation of Army waterlift logistics will be the most interesting thing I learn today.
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cordex

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 11:58:26 AM »
Take the  DOE SWAT team.  Is it just using some of that sweet DHS funding?  Maybe.  Perhaps there is something specific about the warrants and crimes that DOE is using it on.  Sure FBI HRT could learn a new skillset, but there is only so many training hours in the day.  At some point it makes more sense to have a team dedicated to being very good at the one thing they do, rather than the FBI guys being sorta OK at a bunch of mission.  Does anyone here actually know what DOE SWAT's mission parameters are?
Not SWAT specific, but:
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• ED OIG investigative staff carry an annual investigative caseload of about 250 to 300 cases. ED OIG operates with statutory law enforcement authority and executes about 80 arrest warrants and search warrants each year.
• ED OIG has the authority to investigate any entity or person that receives ED funds or participates in ED programs, including ED employees, grant recipients, school officials, teachers, and students, and it seeks criminal and civil prosecutions and the recovery of Federal funds.
• ED OIG investigations cover a wide range of wrongdoing, including Federal student aid fraud rings, diploma mill schemes, fraud and corruption in after-school tutoring programs, and fraudulent billing of contracts. ED OIG investigations have unraveled multimillion dollar fraud schemes by high-ranking school officials, school owners, and other people placed in positions of trust to educate our children.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2019, 12:04:28 PM »
I'm wondering it it's to enhance enlistments by our modern youth...  "Gee, expert computer training for free."  Also, to have a marketable skill when they get out besides breaking things.

What's a term of enlistment in the Marines these days? Six years? You can't train up a kid to be a Marine, and then turn him into a hacker-grade computer geek, in six years. Not even close.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 12:08:55 PM »
logistics, where rarely at the same locations.

Easily resolved by TDY, and inter-service assignments. There have been and are multi-service special teams in the sandbox, and they generally perform very well. I just can't see any logic to having each branch duplicate the cyber function. I also see a lot of potential waste due to insufficient inter-service communication. The Marines may figure out how to prevent Iran from hack the Mk XVII Mode 7 drones, but the Army may be using the same drone and the Marines don't bother to tell the Army how to protect them, for example.
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dogmush

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 12:25:44 PM »
Easily resolved by TDY, and inter-service assignments. There have been and are multi-service special teams in the sandbox, and they generally perform very well. I just can't see any logic to having each branch duplicate the cyber function. I also see a lot of potential waste due to insufficient inter-service communication. The Marines may figure out how to prevent Iran from hack the Mk XVII Mode 7 drones, but the Army may be using the same drone and the Marines don't bother to tell the Army how to protect them, for example.

What you are refusing to see is that it's not necessarily duplicating the function.  Each service has specific missions in each of the five Domains of warfare.  That holds true in the Cyber Domain as well.  The USMC's mission in Cyber is not the USAF's mission which is not the Army's mission and so on.  Can some of it be done with troops from other services like Navy Corpsman in Marine platoons?  Sure.  Are there USMC missions in the Cyber Domain that are USMC specific and should probably be handled by Marines?  Also sure.


Andiron

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 07:14:36 PM »
I'm wondering it it's to enhance enlistments by our modern youth...  "Gee, expert computer training for free."  Also, to have a marketable skill when they get out besides breaking things.

Former 0651 Marine.

CNOC/DTS whatever they're calling it these days is a joke.  Comm school is a condensed Cisco course and MS Exchange.  Basically,  you plug stuff in and make the network work, then do any maintenance that comes up.  No 1337 hacker *expletive deleted*it,  just tech support.  I honestly learned more in the fleet than comm school.  Lotta OTJ training.   We didn't have any actual SWAN operators,  so my comm chief stuck me on it and we learned enough to make it work together.

I *expletive deleted*ing hated that MOS and dodged it for other work at every opportunity.  Motor T always needed help.
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Andiron

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Re: Should the U.S. Marines have their own Geek Squad?
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 07:26:04 PM »
What's a term of enlistment in the Marines these days? Six years? You can't train up a kid to be a Marine, and then turn him into a hacker-grade computer geek, in six years. Not even close.

Luckily,  we don't even try to do that.  Best you'll get is a reservist that's really good at tech stuff on the civilian side that brings excellence to his MOS on drill weekend.  Active is hit or miss, and the really good ones put in a lot of time learning stuff never covered from comm school.

And you can train up a kid to be a Marine in 13 weeks, and another 4 for MCT to make POGs.  Add another 6 odd months at bad old 29 Palms and you've got a Comm Marine that's capable of maintaining voice or data comms to almost anywhere on the planet.  (ask me about this one time we called Oki just to see if we could).  Hacker geek isn't in the mission at all.
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