Author Topic: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!  (Read 1936 times)

Cliffh

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Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« on: June 30, 2019, 09:10:17 PM »
During the last month we've had a new metal roof put on and signed a contract for 14 double pane vinyl windows.

Four days ago the A/C quit working, for the 3rd time in as many years.  The first time our long-time A/C guy talked SWMBO into a used outside unit - $700.  Last year it was the inside coils - different A/C guy installed a new set - $800.  This last time it was the capacitor for the outside motor - $500.

We've been getting quotes on replacement systems, anywhere from keeping the new coils and replacing the outside unit & electric furnace to replacing all the components and using a heat pump instead of the electric furnace.

I'm considering the going with the heat pump and dumping the electric furnace.  But I've got a couple of concerns: the heat pump runs all year since it's doing both the heating & cooling, (probably shorting it's life compared to an A/C w/furnace); and will the heat pump put out enough heat in the winter?

The winters here in east TX (about 1/2 between Dallas & Tyler) are usually pretty mild.  We'll occasionally get some snow and/or ice and not too many days below 32*.  From https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Texas/Places/dallas-temperatures-by-month-average.php :

Freezing temperatures overnight can happen in Dallas anytime from November to March, normally totalling 23 days a year. For three nights a winter, the lows drop down to 20 degrees Fahrenheit.  Most frosty nights in Dallas are followed by daytime thaws. Only on two days a year, typically, does the day's high stay below freezing.

Of course those are averages.  Not too many years ago we had an ice storm that stuck around for a few days, got fairly cold.  We'll get some snow every now and again.

On a side note, Damn there's a hell of a markup in A/C parts!  The first time I noticed this was when we were charged $75 for a $15 part.  The cap that blew last time cost anywhere from $20 to $35 on Amazon - I was charged over $400 for it.  Sure wish I could have had a markup like that when I had the computer shop....

MechAg94

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2019, 10:33:46 PM »
I had to have capacitors replaced a couple times and I don't remember them being that expensive.  My memory isn't clear though.

I have no idea what prices look like on A/C units.  Get more than one quote.
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Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2019, 10:39:10 PM »
I've gotten 4 quotes so far, another appointment on Tues.  Prices are running from just over $4k with keeping the coils & replacing the condenser & furnace to just over $6k for the heat pump, coils & furnace.  

I'm not counting the quote from the folks who did the last repair - they made it clear they're no coming out this far again, they raped me on the cap and they a new system would be over $11k.

I'm mainly wondering if anyone's had experience with the heat pump systems - I'd hate to spend more and get less.

MillCreek

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 12:26:49 AM »
Your winter temps are not dissimilar to the Seattle area. Our heat pump does a fine job of keeping the house warm, albeit the temp goes up about four degrees per hour when it is cold out as when we get home from work and the heat has been off all day.  We have our thermostat set such that when it gets below 30 degrees outside, the electric heat strips in the air handler come on to supplement the heat pump.  Those really suck up the electricity and we can see that in the power bill. We especially love the heat pump for the 4 weeks or so in Seattle when it gets warm (above 80 degrees).

We will most likely never buy another house, but my wife and I agree that if we did, a heat pump would be high on the list of requirements.
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K Frame

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 07:42:39 AM »
You're about the perfect customer for a heat pump.

In your area's prevailing weather conditions a heat pump will give you more than enough heat, very likely only rarely, if ever, requiring the supplemental coils to kick in (basically a small version of your electric furnace).

I have a heat pump in Northern Virginia. It's about 23 years old at this point and is still serving well, and our weather gets a lot colder than yours. Because our temperatures get much colder, and stay colder, I've always wanted something other than a heat pump. Yes, it heats my house, but it's not a warm heat. The biggest drawback to heat pumps is that they have to move a LOT of air, and that leads to the house feeling drafty. Making sure there's enough humidity in the air in winter helps, but I never felt truly comfortable during really cold stretches. But, it was a very economical method of heating as compared to straight electric or fuel oil.

That's why I went with a pellet stove earlier this years. That gives me the WARM heat that I want when I'm home, and the heat pump provides supplemental heating when I'm not using the pellet stove. I set the thermostat back to 60 degrees, to the point where it rarely ran, and was very happy.

In the summer it provides great AC.

What you MUST do, however, is make sure that whomever installs it doesn't oversize it. If the system is too big it will heat and cool just fine, but in cooling mode it won't remove enough moisture from the air. My system is a little oversized since I really upped the insulation and I have to run dehumidifiers in the summer or else I'm living in a cool swamp.
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K Frame

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 07:44:01 AM »
"Prices are running from just over $4k with keeping the coils & replacing the condenser & furnace to just over $6k for the heat pump, coils & furnace."

If you're going to spend the money, do the entire system. Everything is new, everything is designed to work together, and everything is under warranty.
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dogmush

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 09:05:21 AM »
I have a heat pump in central FL, and love it.  Tampa gets a couple weeks of high30's/low 40's with a really nasty humidity, so it feels cold and crappy.  My heat pump has no problems keeping the house at 70, and I don't think I've ever hit the aux heat.  In summer it keeps it nice and cool, and dry.

In FL (where they run ALL the time) average lifespan of a good heat pump is 18-20 years until something breaks that makes it worth just getting a new system.  The cheap, crappy one the builder installed in my current house only went about 10 years, but the good, brand name systems in both this house and my rental have 7 and 14 years respectively with no real problems (and the only problem at all was covered by warranty.  Bad reversing valve)

I'm a fan.

Ben

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 09:21:44 AM »
I'm new to heat pumps, but so far am a fan. When I bought the current place, it came with a crappy heat pump and a mismatched propane furnace (dual system). I ended up biting the bullet and had a new, matched system installed.

For cooling, it has been rockin'. We're just hitting our max temperatures right now (90-100), and it has been keeping the house very comfortable at 73deg. The electric bill is also much less (even factoring in Idaho's cheap electricity) compared to the AC at the old place.

On heating, I missed last Winter, so it has only gotten down to 30 since the system was installed. Again though, it has kept the house very comfortable (I set heating to 69). The dual system is set to kick in the propane furnace at I think 27deg. The installer said that's even a little high as the heat pump can handle lower temps, but to Mike's point, I wanted to feel comfortable and the propane furnace will feel warmer to me, so I had him set it higher and don't mind kicking the more expensive propane in early. I think the normal "efficiency switchover" is around 23deg.
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Firethorn

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 10:43:54 AM »
I'm considering the going with the heat pump and dumping the electric furnace.  But I've got a couple of concerns: the heat pump runs all year since it's doing both the heating & cooling, (probably shorting it's life compared to an A/C w/furnace); and will the heat pump put out enough heat in the winter?

Disclaimer:  Dad works for a HVAC company that does commercial work(they do home units, but only for employees*), but I'm just IT.

1.  In many cases just being installed results in wear&tear.  Running a system can help keep stuff lubed and free, resulting in the same lifespan over a broad range of utilization.
2.  If properly sized, it will provide all the heat you need in the winter.
3.  If it can't produce enough heat in the winter, it is possible to utilize a fallback system.  This is usually direct resistive strips, but having it activate a furnace of some type is perfectly possible.
4.  Generally the money saved in increased heating efficiency will more than pay for the cost of the upgrade.  Direct electric might be cheaper installed and probably last close to forever, but paying 3X per BTU delivered adds up fast.

*Yes, dad's house has a commercial grade system.  It basically translates to:  More expensive but also easier to service and basically bulletproof.  For example, US built capacitors that don't have a 10% failure rate in the first month.  The condenser(outside unit) is HUGE.

Heat pumps are generally good to well below 0F, so "not much" below 32F is great for them.  In addition, given that, you're not going to be using it as a furnace all that much as compared to, say, Nebraska.  

20F as a low?  I'm used to dealing with -20F being the average.  ;)

Quote
On a side note, Damn there's a hell of a markup in A/C parts!  The first time I noticed this was when we were charged $75 for a $15 part.  The cap that blew last time cost anywhere from $20 to $35 on Amazon - I was charged over $400 for it.  Sure wish I could have had a markup like that when I had the computer shop....

What you're likely dealing with here is the minimum 1 hour callout fee.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 12:13:34 PM by Firethorn »

Ron

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2019, 11:16:36 AM »
Go with replacing your whole system with the heat pump system. Back up/emergency electric heat is pretty typical in colder climates.

I’m assuming your current system is an R-22 system. R-22 is going away as a refrigerant so the good money is on getting up to date technologically.







For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Nick1911

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2019, 11:35:52 AM »
$500 for a capacitor, installed?  That's beyond unreasonable and firmly into the realm of unconsionable.

That part cost the company at most $15.

A heat pump would be an excellent choice for you.  Manufacturers tell us that heat pumps are designed to last just as long as conventianal A/C units.  The heat pump will be installed with supplemental electric resistance heat, so your home will stay warm even during cold snaps that are too much for the heatpump to keep up with.

Heat pumps operate at about 3x the efficiency of standard electric resistance heat.  This is a generalization, I can explain in more detail if you would like.

Brand is of second consideration to the install.  If the installer is sloppy and cuts corners, it could serverly reduce the life of your new unit.  The installer MUST be purging with an inert gas when brazing, and must follow correct evacuation procedures!

I teach HVAC, feel free to PM me if you have any quesitons or would like me to review bids.

Ron

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2019, 12:15:49 PM »
The $500 dollar capacitor service call was his way of firing you as a customer.

A trustworthy person would never overcharge that blatantly.

Sorry about that, the residential industry has its fair share of shysters unfortunately.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 11:48:16 AM »
Sounds as if the heat pump's the way to go.  Ran this same question by the local radio/TV home improvement guy, he also recommended the heat pump (in our situation).

At least I'm for it, she's still gathering info.

Two of the estimates have come just over $6k, one replacing the inside coils, the other keeping the old coils & changing out the piston so they'll handle the new r-410.  Both have comparable warranties & both use Amana parts.  I'd like to give it to the two young guys just starting out, but they're the ones who quoted keeping the inside coils.

The last repair folks charged $19.95 just to take the cap off the truck...  Yep, they really don't want to come out this far again.

K Frame

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 12:27:05 PM »
I still recommend doing the entire system at once.
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Ron

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 12:47:31 PM »
Indoor climate control is one of the most important things to have to enjoy a high quality of life in your home.

This isn’t the place to skimp.

You already have been burned, costing you dollars to save nickels.

If you can swing it, go with the whole new system.

Can retrofits work? Yes.

But your components weren’t designed for the new refrigerant, that’s a compromise.

The system potentially has been contaminated from previous component failures. I’m assuming a compressor failed on the old condensing unit. If the old coil in the house had a bad enough leak and the system was flat out of gas, potential contamination. If the tech didn’t use good practices changing out those components, potential contamination.R-22 compressors usually use a different oil than newer refrigerants and some oil frequently migrates through the system along with the refrigerant, another potential source of contamination.  R-22 is very forgiving of contamination, new refrigerant systems not so much.

Over 20 years of commercial refrigeration Ive probably done dozens of retrofits. Can they work? Absolutely. Is there an increased possibility of immediate and future problems? Absolutely

It may work great or be a source of “I wish we would have...”
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2019, 01:09:52 PM »
I'd pretty much figured that trying to save a couple nickles on keeping the old inside coils wouldn't be worth it in the long run, hence my "I'd like to but..." 

The kids are supposed to call back today, I'll verify their pricing - whether or not the quote includes keeping or replacing the coils - and if/how they plan to purge while brazing.  If I don't like their answers there's another company that does replace the coils & purges with nitrogen, has ~ the same pricing and warranty, and they're only ~ 4miles away.

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2019, 01:23:52 PM »
I've been hesitant putting out the name of the last repair company, but they done pissed me off.  It's Milestone Electric - fair sized company in DFW who advertise on both radio and TV.

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2019, 01:26:10 PM »
Oh, another plus or minus (depending on how I look at it) for the youngsters is one of them informed me about a newer 1/4 mile dirt track nearby.  I've been reading the rules for the different classes....

Nick1911

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2019, 03:39:33 PM »
I second everything Ron said.

If at all possiable, change the inside coil.  When I'm hunting leaks, 90% of the time, it's the inside coil.

If you had a burned out compressor and are reusing the copper lineset, insist it be flushed with a commercial flushing soluiton, like RX11.

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2019, 06:58:29 PM »
We'd decided that replacing everything was the way to go - neither of us wanted another mix of old/new parts.

Talked with the younger company, they said their quote for the heat pump did include new inside coils w/heat strips, along with a new pad, running the low voltage wire, etc.

Trying to decide between a newer company (1 1/2 yrs) with young guys vs an older company (~4 yrs) and older owner/employees.  Both claim the same amount of experience before going out on their own - ~10yrs.  Warranties are the same.  Components from the same company (Amana).  Kids might not be able to keep business running for 10 years, older guy might "retire" in less than 10 years.  I met with one company, SWMBO met with the other - we each like the one we met with.  Decisions,decisions...

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2019, 09:24:02 PM »
It's in and working!

The kids got the job: 16 seer AC/heat pump w/backup heat strips, 10yr parts & 2yr labor - lifetime on the outside unit.  Everything is new, from the thermostat to the drain line.  Well, not everything - we kept the air intake grill.

It took them the better part of two days.  They started on day one at about 1000 & quit around 2100.  A miscommunication cost a bit of time, they'd thought we were keeping the old coils so they had to pick up the new coils & swap out the lower inside unit.  They were back again the next morning around 1000, worked until 2030.

There was an increase in the cost because of the new coils over re-using the old ones.  But (supposedly) the up-charge was only their cost on the coils - I've really got no way of knowing.  We did try to give them a small tip ($100) - they turned it down.  I asked about a service contract - they said I'd be better of just calling them out twice a year for their tune-up service at less than $40 per tune-up.

I don't know the actual CFM numbers, but there is a noticeable increase in the air flow coming out of the vents. 

The outside temps have been in the mid to upper 90's, the AC's actually shutting off during the day when set at 76*.  The old AC would run all day at those temps/settings.  The new windows should have it shutting off even more often.

All-in-all, I'm satisfied it was a good way to spend $6,750.

We did have an "Aw-*expletive deleted*it" moment last night.  Just prior to bedtime, DW had gone to change the AC setting for the night.  Just as she flipped the light switch there were a lot of "popping" sounds from the breaker panel, the lights started flickering, the AC started surging, then we lost electricity.  We were "What the hell!" "What happened?" "What'd you do?" "Did the AC just FUBAR our electric circuits?"  Our best guess is there was a lighting strike somewhere nearby that knocked out the electricity.  We only had to spend 3 hours or so waiting for it to come back on.  Of course that was 3 hours of lost sleep, long day on only 3 hours.  Just now she walked into the room saying she'd turned the AC temp down for the night & didn't blow up the house :)

Ron

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2019, 09:31:21 PM »
Hopefully you won’t even have think about your a/c and heat except at the time of year when it’s time for new filters and a check up.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Cliffh

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2019, 09:44:40 PM »
Something I've been pondering and can't seem to figure out:

DW is home all day, so the AC runs off and on all day.  Would it use less electricity if it were set at a higher temp?  Say, instead of 76* during the day & 70* at night, set it at 78* during the day & 72* at night?

Seems to me that it would take longer for the AC to start in the morning, just 'cause it'd take longer for the house to heat up to 78*.  But after that it'd turn on/off the same amount of times & each run time would be just as long as if set for the lower temp.  So, while it would save some electricity, it really wouldn't be all that much.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2019, 09:52:48 AM »

DW is home all day, so the AC runs off and on all day.  Would it use less electricity if it were set at a higher temp?  Say, instead of 76* during the day & 70* at night, set it at 78* during the day & 72* at night?


The simple answer is "yes" .... but it's not that simple.

Generally speaking, the lower the interior/exterior temp delta, the less energy you'll use. However, there comes a point of diminishing returns. Some people go all-in and use "turn it off during the day and on at night". In that case there is an issue with excessive temp deltas in thermal mass, humidity buildup, etc., which results in more energy use to re-temper the space versus leaving the unit on in a moderate capacity. Unfortunately there is no absolute, or chart, or specific guide on this because every dwelling is different. There is a decent rule of thumb, though. Adjust the temp up 4-8 deg F during daytime heat, then begin cooling in the evening as exterior temps subside and solar loads diminish.

After some trial and error at my place I found the sweet spot was about 5 deg F during the day with a two-step evening reduction. I take advantage of my programmable stat (love it!) and let it do the work. I let temps drift up during the day, knock it down a couple degrees for after work and evening, then hit the "nice and cool" button for overnight.

COOLING
Mon-Fri
7:30a - 5:30p  75 Deg F
5:30p - 9:30p  73 Deg F
9:30p - 7:30a  70 Deg F

Sat-Sun
24 hr  70 Deg F

HEAT
67 Deg F (constant)

I also keep ceiling fans running 24/7 in every room. Low speeds in unoccupied rooms. Speeds to whatever is comfortable in occupied rooms. Downdraft in summer, updraft in winter. This homogenizes the air mass and keeps temps throughout the house nice and consistent.

Brad
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K Frame

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Re: Windows and Roofs and A/C's oh my!
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2019, 10:04:28 AM »
"we kept the air intake grill."

YOU FOOL! THAT'S THE MOST CRITICAL PART TO REPLACE!  :rofl:

On my heat pump I have always set the heat at 70 or so and left it go all winter. That keeps the electric back up from kicking in. When that kicks in, it REALLY chews up the electrons.

In summer, though, I turn the set temp up during the day when I leave for work at 6 a.m. (normally to 78 or 80) and turn it back down when I get home around 5 p.m., normally to 70 or 72.

The thing of it is, except during the absolute hottest days, the temperature RARELY is higher than 76 or 77 degrees when I get home. The unit will normally run for a couple of hours and then start cycling normally.

The upstairs gets to be a little hotter than that, but usually no more than 1 to 2 degrees differential. That's primarily because back in 2010 I went from probably an R-11 (maybe a bit higher) in the attic to R-50 by blowing in an additional 20+ inches.

That made heating and cooling the place a LOT easier on the wallet, but it also made the summer humidity levels spike to the point where I often have to run two dehumidifiers, one in the basement and one upstairs.

If I ever have to replace this system (SEER 12 Trane) I'll go with a two-stage system that will do a much better job of handling the humidity.

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