Author Topic: No Citizenship Question on the Census  (Read 5016 times)

brimic

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2019, 11:45:26 AM »
Can it be called ironic that the same people who screamed, and still are, about interference in the 2016 election are the very same people making interference in our elections as easy as possible?

Irony? No.
Want to know what a politician is doing? All you have to do is listen to what they are accusing their opposition of.
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Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2019, 01:05:34 PM »

Because the Article I, Section 2, of the Constitution makes no reference to the people being counted being citizens. Only free people.

As reported, the results of the Census also didn't reference which individuals counted were citizens vs. non-citizens.

As far as I can tell it wasn't until the 1820 census that a count was made of "foreigners not naturalized."
Considering representation is based upon the census numbers I would have thought that implied we needed to count who are actually the voters in a region.

Democrats in the border states allow their states to be flooded with illegals.

Get more representatives in Congress based on non-citizens.

What could be wrong with that?
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

K Frame

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2019, 01:31:26 PM »
"Considering representation is based upon the census numbers I would have thought that implied we needed to count who are actually the voters in a region."

Slaves didn't vote, but for representation purposes they were counted as 3/5s of a person.

Women didn't vote, but they were counted.

Children didn't vote, but they were counted.

The purpose of the census was multi-fold, to literally count EVERYONE living under the jurisdiction of the US government (notice that the census didn't count untaxed Indians, meaning that they weren't under Federal jurisdiction) and use those numbers to establish representation but to also establish taxation levels.
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Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2019, 01:47:46 PM »
"Considering representation is based upon the census numbers I would have thought that implied we needed to count who are actually the voters in a region."

Slaves didn't vote, but for representation purposes they were counted as 3/5s of a person.

Women didn't vote, but they were counted.

Children didn't vote, but they were counted.

The purpose of the census was multi-fold, to literally count EVERYONE living under the jurisdiction of the US government (notice that the census didn't count untaxed Indians, meaning that they weren't under Federal jurisdiction) and use those numbers to establish representation but to also establish taxation levels.

Well if that’s the law I guess we should just let the left have the country.

Even if we lose the country at least we will still have our precious principles.

The left is exploiting an unforeseen loop hole.

Massive third world economic migrations were not foreseen.

The right is playing checkers and the left is waging total war.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

K Frame

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2019, 02:00:44 PM »
"Massive third world economic migrations were not foreseen."

Be VERY careful trying to use that argument.

That's the same argument that the left loves to use in its push for gun control.
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Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2019, 02:14:58 PM »
"Massive third world economic migrations were not foreseen."

Be VERY careful trying to use that argument.

That's the same argument that the left loves to use in its push for gun control.

It’s very frustrating that our (the right) respect for order and rule of law has so effectively being used as the very weapon to destroy the country.

They’ve managed to remake the constitution and our laws into a suicide pact.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

K Frame

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2019, 02:20:12 PM »
Well, don't worry, the *expletive deleted*it that the government's started putting in the chemtrail mix will kill off hetero white men quickly enough.
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Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2019, 02:27:04 PM »
Well, don't worry, the *expletive deleted*it that the government's started putting in the chemtrail mix will kill off hetero white men quickly enough.


They don’t need chemtrails.

The west is doing it chemical free by its men and women willingly choosing insanity.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

brimic

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2019, 02:27:37 PM »
"Considering representation is based upon the census numbers I would have thought that implied we needed to count who are actually the voters in a region."

Slaves didn't vote, but for representation purposes they were counted as 3/5s of a person.

Women didn't vote, but they were counted.

Children didn't vote, but they were counted.

The purpose of the census was multi-fold, to literally count EVERYONE living under the jurisdiction of the US government (notice that the census didn't count untaxed Indians, meaning that they weren't under Federal jurisdiction) and use those numbers to establish representation but to also establish taxation levels.

I'm good with counting everyone, but everyone needs to step forward and declare who they are, citizen or not, and there is zero reason why we shouldn't know how many citizens vs non-citizens are living in this country.
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Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2019, 02:29:59 PM »
I'm good with counting everyone, but everyone needs to step forward and declare who they are, citizen or not, and there is zero reason why we shouldn't know how many citizens vs non-citizens are living in this country.

Good point.

Everyone gets categorized except as citizens/non-citizens why?

Well we know why.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 02:30:57 PM »
The Constitution also doesn't say anything about gender, marital status, etc.  Those questions get asked anyway.  The citizenship question (at this stage anyway) does not serve to reduce counts by the amount of non-citizens, just to provide statistical information.

Essentially lots of Republicans like the idea because they either think it will reduce responses in areas with lots of illegals which will tend to reduce Democratic representation (because lying on the census form is so difficult and because an illegal immigrant would never lie to the government), or they think they can make hay with the statistics after the fact.

Lots of Democrats hate the idea for the same reason, and because they think illegals should be voting (for Democrats) from the day they jump the fence until the day vote fraudsters can no longer read their name on their gravestone.

Illegal immigrants are a problem that I don't have a good answer to.  Honestly, the Democrats might actually benefit from an honest accounting of the size of the problem since I can't think of a rational way to address a problem that large.

MechAg94

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2019, 03:05:45 PM »
My issue is if one state has say 10 Million citizens and another state has 5 million citizens and 5 million non-citizens, the first state should get more representation in Congress.  I don't really care if it suppresses someone's response.  Representation in Congress is the whole point of the census.
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brimic

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2019, 03:33:15 PM »
My issue is if one state has say 10 Million citizens and another state has 5 million citizens and 5 million non-citizens, the first state should get more representation in Congress.  I don't really care if it suppresses someone's response.  Representation in Congress is the whole point of the census.

That's pretty much the core of the issue. Places like California want more representation/uncle sugar money through illegitimate means.
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"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
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cordex

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2019, 04:25:33 PM »
My issue is if one state has say 10 Million citizens and another state has 5 million citizens and 5 million non-citizens, the first state should get more representation in Congress.  I don't really care if it suppresses someone's response.  Representation in Congress is the whole point of the census.
I don't disagree, but isn't the right way to fix that a Constitutional Amendment?

Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2019, 05:07:50 PM »
I don't disagree, but isn't the right way to fix that a Constitutional Amendment?

So do nothing?

Tilting at windmills doesn’t count.

Pursuing constitutional amendments regarding anything in today’s climate = tilting at windmills = actually doing nothing.







For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2019, 05:09:13 PM »
So do nothing?

Tilting at windmills doesn’t count.

Pursuing constitutional amendments regarding anything in today’s climate = tilting at windmills = actually doing nothing.
Would you prefer we ignore the Constitution when we don't like what it says?

Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2019, 05:35:43 PM »
Would you prefer we ignore the Constitution when we don't like what it says?

I would consider the states, cities, judges and law enforcement agencies ignoring the current immigration laws to be a constitutional crises.

Not to give you a clue or anything, the other side is ignoring the law at will and getting away with it.



For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2019, 10:24:08 PM »
I would consider the states, cities, judges and law enforcement agencies ignoring the current immigration laws to be a constitutional crises.

Not to give you a clue or anything, the other side is ignoring the law at will and getting away with it.
Yes, I'm aware.  I repeat my question.  Would you prefer we ignore the Constitution when we don't like what it says?

Doggy Daddy

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2019, 10:27:34 PM »
Yes, I'm aware.  I repeat my question.  Would you prefer we ignore the Constitution when we don't like what it says?

It could be argued that failure to follow the stated purpose of the second is ignoring the constitution.
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TommyGunn

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2019, 11:39:23 PM »
"Considering representation is based upon the census numbers I would have thought that implied we needed to count who are actually the voters in a region."

Slaves didn't vote, but for representation purposes they were counted as 3/5s of a person.

Women didn't vote, but they were counted.

Children didn't vote, but they were counted.

The purpose of the census was multi-fold, to literally count EVERYONE living under the jurisdiction of the US government (notice that the census didn't count untaxed Indians, meaning that they weren't under Federal jurisdiction) and use those numbers to establish representation but to also establish taxation levels.

What's wrong with counting everyone and asking if they're citizens,  and using the no. of citizens to determine representation?  That was the reason for the citizen question, wasn't it? 


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cordex

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2019, 07:11:26 AM »
It could be argued that failure to follow the stated purpose of the second is ignoring the constitution.
I don't believe that just because my political opponents want to redefine the Constitution to serve their own purposes without actually amending it that our side should do the same thing when it serves our purposes.  Down that road lies a constant and escalating tit-for-tat abrogation of rights which would lead to a hell that I don't even want to consider.

Ron likes to hint that the Right should start abandoning core principles in order to better fight the Left using the same dirty tricks the Left uses.  That's the kind of strategy that loses the war no matter how many battles it helps you win.

What's wrong with counting everyone and asking if they're citizens,  and using the no. of citizens to determine representation?  That was the reason for the citizen question, wasn't it? 
1. Because that is not what the Constitution says.
2. Not explicitly, no.  It was billed as an informational question like ones about the gender of the occupants.  I believe Republicans who support this are hoping for a reduction in illegal immigrant participation in the census and that Democrats are afraid of it, but no, that isn't the purpose.

Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2019, 07:33:32 AM »
I don't believe that just because my political opponents want to redefine the Constitution to serve their own purposes without actually amending it that our side should do the same thing when it serves our purposes.  Down that road lies a constant and escalating tit-for-tat abrogation of rights which would lead to a hell that I don't even want to consider.

Ron likes to hint that the Right should start abandoning core principles in order to better fight the Left using the same dirty tricks the Left uses.  That's the kind of strategy that loses the war no matter how many battles it helps you win.
1. Because that is not what the Constitution says.
2. Not explicitly, no.  It was billed as an informational question like ones about the gender of the occupants.  I believe Republicans who support this are hoping for a reduction in illegal immigrant participation in the census and that Democrats are afraid of it, but no, that isn't the purpose.

You haven’t laid out any path for preserving the integrity of our electoral system.

You let the left set the rules of the game then lose on principle.

That’s how the country was lost.

The court very clearly said there is nothing unconstitutional about the question, they just didn’t like the Administrations reason for including it on the census.

Letting the Supreme Court rule as petty tyrants is not constitutional government.

What’s one of the primary purposes of the census? So we can accurately map out congressional representatives districts. Representatives represent their constituents, the legal voters.

How does the Supreme Court hindering the intent of the census law not trigger your constitutional crises concern?

Republicans are natural born losers who never fail to show their belly when the left cracks the whip.

Always looking for a way to be losers.





For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2019, 07:42:01 AM »

Ron

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2019, 07:52:18 AM »
What's wrong with counting everyone and asking if they're citizens,  and using the no. of citizens to determine representation?  That was the reason for the citizen question, wasn't it? 

There is nothing wrong with asking if they’re citizens.

The whole argument is absurd and folks purportedly on our side are going along with the insanity.

It’s like they have a fetish for submitting and losing. It’s weird.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

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Re: No Citizenship Question on the Census
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2019, 08:13:06 AM »
I have no problem with asking about citizenship on the census, it seems like useful information to have.

But


You guys do know that representation is explicitly based on "free persons" not "citizens"*,  right? That's why the census counts everyone.

Because we tax non citizens,  and the Founders had, IIRC, some rather specific ideas vis a vis taxation and representation.


*I am aware that the 14th ammendment ties representation to the right to vote, which should solve the "representatives for illegals" thing, but it still has a distinction between "people" and "citizen ".