Author Topic: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire  (Read 3657 times)

Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2019, 07:45:23 PM »
I wondered about that, too:

I was thinking engine fuel, but someone else mentioned cooking propane in the galley.

I guess we'll have to wait for the official report.

While the diesels are still a strong possibility, the one thing there is the location of the engine room on the boat. While it might have blocked the regular gangway into the galley, it seems like still at least a few people would have made it out the escape hatches, pretty much at the opposite end of the boat as the engine room. A catastrophic fire in the middle of the boat would have a higher probability of immediately blocking all exits. And I repeat, I have no idea at all if LiIon batteries could do that or not.

As you say though, at this point we'll have to wait for the report.


And stupid tangent, now Diane Feinstein is calling for boat control. Seriously. She wants new boat designs and retrofits on older boats so that this can't happen again, even though we don't know what happened.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2019, 08:13:18 PM »

And stupid tangent, now Diane Feinstein is calling for boat control. Seriously. She wants new boat designs and retrofits on older boats so that this can't happen again, even though we don't know what happened.

Simple.

"No fires are allowed to occur on watercraft carrying passengers for hire. This act shall take effect upon passage."

Done. Clear, concise, direct to the problem ... and completely unenforceable, just like far too many nanny-state laws.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2019, 04:02:58 PM »
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2019, 04:31:06 PM »
Update, of a sort: https://apnews.com/9f2acf97e6ba4ae19ece4b67a6b174d8

While there might be some liability, like the fact that a watchstander was not making rounds*, I'm not sure the rest of the story isn't a bit sensational. Attorney Gorden Carey who has been Scuba diving for 50 years doesn't really know what he's talking about, or he's perhaps angling to ambulance chase. Saying he has never heard of a dive boat where people sleep below is pretty ridiculous for someone that has supposedly been on a lot of dive boats. It's incredibly common, especially on West Coast boats. In fact I've never been on a dive boat anywhere in CA where berthing wasn't below. Who wants to bunk up top when the swells are 6' and 10 seconds? Yuck.

Don Barthelmess, quoted later, is someone I know personally. He teaches the marine diving tech program at Santa Barbara city college and is nationally known in the diving community and DAN (Diver Alert Network). He always gave our federal dive team our emergency dive medic refreshers and diver specific CRP/O2 training. He's someone I'll pay attention to. He is friends with most everyone at Truth Aquatics, so I will allow he may have some favorable bias for the crew, but the lawyer is way off base.

*I don't know maritime law. Dogmush or dm1333 can weigh in. I know a watchstander is supposed to check the whole boat on smaller vessels, but most of the time they just hang out on the bridge. The crew used to do the same thing on our fed.gov 62' vessel. Whoever was on watch generally just hung out between the bridge and galley, and checked the various cameras for fantail, flying bridge, etc. While they did make rounds, they were never regular rounds, unless there was bad weather or anything other than "dead calm and boring" conditions. I would expect a private vessel to be even more lax.

From my understanding from another article, the watchstander for the conception (at least he was identified as such) said he heard a loud noise, left the bridge to investigate, and saw the fire raging in the galley. So he was likely doing the hanging out on the bridge thing himself.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2019, 06:54:52 PM »
I just found out that one of the victims (part of the crew) is the great-niece of the secretary for my department at my old job.  They haven't recovered her body yet.  :'(

I just found a nice article about the young woman who was the crew member who died.

https://apnews.com/9a3c955f3a3141cda8bb346f3118ccfb
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TechMan

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MillCreek

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2019, 08:54:43 AM »
^^^So I wonder if this raises the possibility of criminal charges for not having someone on watch.
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Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2019, 09:01:43 AM »
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-09-12/all-conception-crew-members-were-sleeping-when-boat-fire-broke-out-ntsb-says

Well, the investigation so far is raising interesting questions.

It's one thing for the watchman to be lounging in the wheelhouse awake. Quite another for everybody to be fast asleep. Depending on the results of this part of the investigation,  I can see Truth Aquatics going under in civil suits ( I expect someone to find a loophole in Maritime Law to allow suits).

Why smoke alarms didn't activate (or weren't properly placed) will be another question. In earlier testimony, a crewman said he was awakened by a loud pop, so a smoke alarm certainly should have awakened everyone.

No fire in the engine room, and the USCG emphasizing lithium battery safety. That could be telling.

The final report will be the thing to see, but this preliminary stuff doesn't look great. I was doing some Youtube searches on Lithium battery fires after I started this thread, and while some of them were fizzles, some were rather spectacular. Especially LiPo fires. I'm wondering if someone had Lipo batteries onboard for a drone or scooter or something.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2019, 09:18:38 AM »
LiPO and Li-ion fires are usually spectacular, and spectacularly dangerous. Kinda like a magnesium fire - they burn hot, fast, and can be difficult to extinguish. The influx of crappy import Li-ion batteries of questionable construction and even more questionable materials only make the problem worse.

Brad
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dogmush

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2019, 12:04:54 PM »
Well, the investigation so far is raising interesting questions.

It's one thing for the watchman to be lounging in the wheelhouse awake. Quite another for everybody to be fast asleep. Depending on the results of this part of the investigation,  I can see Truth Aquatics going under in civil suits ( I expect someone to find a loophole in Maritime Law to allow suits).

Why smoke alarms didn't activate (or weren't properly placed) will be another question. In earlier testimony, a crewman said he was awakened by a loud pop, so a smoke alarm certainly should have awakened everyone.

No fire in the engine room, and the USCG emphasizing lithium battery safety. That could be telling.


I was just coming here to post something on this, because I saw a blurb on the news while eating dinner.

Not standing an Anchor Watch is a pretty big deal.

The international Standards of Training, Certification, and Watchkeeping, Chapter VIII lays out the reasons to have an anchor watch.  It does say the Master can, in a sheltered anchorage, forgo a Navigational Watch, but that's very risky, and I don't know anyone that would.

Quote
When a ship is at anchor in an open roadstead or any other virtually "at sea" condition, the
engineer officer in charge of the engineering watch shall ensure that:
.1 an efficient engineering watch is kept;
.2 periodic inspection is made of all operating and stand-by machinery;
.3 main and auxiliary machinery is maintained in a state of readiness in accordance with
orders from the bridge;
.4 measures are taken to protect the environment from pollution by the ship, and that
applicable pollution prevention regulations are complied with; and
.5 all damage control and fire-fighting systems are in readiness.

Additionally, for US vessels 33 CFR is quite clear:
Quote from:  33CFR$164.19
Requirements for vessels at anchor.
The master or person in charge of each vessel that is anchored shall ensure that:

(a) A proper anchor watch is maintained;

(b) Procedures are followed to detect a dragging anchor; and

(c) Whenever weather, tide, or current conditions are likely to cause the vessel's anchor to drag, action is taken to ensure the safety of the vessel, structures, and other vessels, such as being ready to veer chain, let go a second anchor, or get underway using the vessel's own propulsion or tug assistance.


Since they had generator's running they probably should have had a generator watch too (one person could do both). Not to mention the requirement to maintain a radio watch on the bridge.  I suspect that as the court cases develop phrases like "Gross Negligence" and "clear violation of Laws and Standards" are going to be thrown around pretty convincingly.

On the smoke alarms: some older fire detection systems only ring the alarms in the bridge and engineering spaces, because there's supposed to be someone there at all times.  So it may have been that kind of system.  I'm not super versed on the specifics for passenger vessels.

This is just another reason that I get real twitchy when on a vessel I am not a watchstander on.  They are engineered pretty well ;)  but people get lazy and stupid.

Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2019, 12:26:17 PM »
This is just another reason that I get real twitchy when on a vessel I am not a watchstander on.  They are engineered pretty well ;)  but people get lazy and stupid.

And honestly, a lot of the "crew" (quotes for a reason) on cattle boats like this are simply not the sharpest knives in the drawer. They don't get paid a lot, and I've seen plenty of them in Santa Barbara, when they're not working, living the semi-homeless dock rat life, drinking and toking.

Not to say there aren't good crew - lots of college kids majoring in marine science, or people looking to become dive instructors etc., or people looking to earn their 100 ton or whatever might work as crew and be sharp cookies. But all it takes is the one knucklehead. As I said earlier, I have more than once, when on these boats, especially in  calm and safe harbor, seen the crew get pretty lax at night, especially if the captain is in his rack.

This is an older boat, so they may have just done the minimum requirements for fire safety. I can't remember anymore what the fire safety layout was. Also I caught that the boat's previous owner said there were electric sockets in berthing. I never remembered seeing any on the Truth boats, but on the one of them where I did overnights,  I pretty much was just in the rack to sleep, so didn't look. If somebody was charging stuff in berthing, I'd be almost certain there would be no surge suppression down there. I don't know how LiIon batteries react to big surges, like from a genset.

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Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2019, 12:51:31 PM »
This video gives an idea of the layout of the boat, berthing, and the escape hatch.

https://www.independent.com/2019/09/13/unreleased-conception-safety-video-reveals-tight-quarters-of-bunk-room-escape-hatch/


A couple of points:

The article kind of alludes to the smallness and inaccessibility of the escape hatch. That hatch placement is really no different than the escape hatches of gov boats I have been on. Our 62 footer had a similar hatch over the top bunk in each of the two lower berthing areas. It's politically incorrect, but if you're really fat or gimpy, this type of boat is not for you. It sounds like hatch size and placement are going to be focused on though, since NTSB is already mentioning it. Though it would be interesting to know the expertise of the NTSB people regarding boat design. I haven't seen any specific negative comments by USCG on the escape hatch as of yet.

The article reminded me of one thing that could be improved upon, and that I believe the video was trying to correct: Typically on these boats when you do either overnighters, or else are doing a long day trip that requires the boat to leave at like 0300, they are setup so that divers can arrive from late afternoon the day before the dive to an hour or so before the boat departs. Departures from those SoCal harbors for those trips are almost always between 0000-0400, so most people show up the evening before and sack out on the boat.

This means that you have people constantly trickling in through the night, and there's no way to give an "all hands" safety briefing until the first dive site the following morning. In the Conception's case, they were on their last night, so everyone had their safety briefing. Had something like this happened the first night, new people on the boat would not have known a lot of safety information unless they asked or else read one of the briefing binders or placards.

ETA: Rewatching the video, I have to add that the "man overboard" part was inadequate IMO. When you have multiple people on board, I was always taught that one person has their eyes and pointer finger on the MOB at all times. You shout for someone else to grab the ring or whatever, but NEVER take your eyes off the person in the water (unless someone else has confirmed eyes on), because it's incredibly easy to lose sight of them.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 01:11:50 PM by Ben »
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MillCreek

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2020, 09:12:55 AM »
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2020, 09:23:25 AM »
I was just reading about it this morning. A few things new and old:

Yeah, it certainly looks like some crew negligence at this point. Note my post above about "not the sharpest knives in the drawer" and add to that "lax and lazy".

No definitive cause of fire, but based on where it started, I think we know.

A new item for me - several passengers had shoes on, so people likely had the time and were trying to get out. We know now that they all died of smoke inhalation. Small comfort, but 1000X better than being burned alive.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2020, 08:08:33 PM »
And I thought the whole duck boat thing was pretty bad.  =|
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MillCreek

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2020, 09:17:33 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/02/940997136/california-dive-boat-captain-charged-in-fire-that-killed-34

The indictments came down yesterday: 34 counts of negligent manslaughter for the captain.  Each count is punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and I note the captain is 67 years old, so I suspect he will die in Federal prison.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Ben

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Re: Over 30 Reported Dead in CA Dive Boat Fire
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2020, 09:35:16 AM »
I understand the whole "captain goes down with the ship" thing, and do NOT understand maritime law, but wow - while he absolutely has culpability, I kinda feel bad for him taking what appears to be 100% of the criminal charges.

The Fritzlers, to me, absolutely have some criminal culpability if the captain does. This is where my lack of understanding of maritime law comes in. It appears between their lawyer using that maritime law loophole, and that they supposedly met minimum Coast Guard requirements, they're going to walk away from the criminal side. I'm sure there will be some civil settlement of one kind or another.

While they may have met USCG requirements, that charging station and overall electric outlet issue has been an issue since back when I went out on their boats. Fixing or upgrading it should have been an obvious common sense thing to do, and was obvious even ten years ago.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."