Author Topic: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds  (Read 11561 times)

MechAg94

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2019, 09:06:43 PM »
Ben, I very much agree about the lack of good information.  All we can really do is be patient and see how it ends up. 
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Chester32141

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2019, 09:26:36 PM »
Had Trump said (best behind closed doors to not disseminate intelligence to our adversaries) "I want us out of their ASAP - come up with an efficient withdrawal plan of no longer than six months for complete troop and asset withdrawal" I would have zero issues. That gets us out relatively quickly, but gives the strategic experts a window for efficient withdrawal and a window to prep our Kurd allies to transition in. He could easily have done that behind closed doors, then made a public announcement that "we're out tomorrow" at the end of the transition window.
Quote
Date Line  1/1/19 ... President Trump Gives Four Month Timeline For U.S. Troop Withdrawal from Syria…

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/01/01/president-trump-gives-four-month-timeline-for-u-s-troop-withdrawal-from-syria/
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charby

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2019, 02:27:55 AM »
Caucus or primary for you favorite Democrat, stick a fork in him, he's done.
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dogmush

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2019, 04:03:41 AM »
Here's where we're at because of this:

*Syrian Kurds, who as was pointed out, already lean Marxist are making overtures to Russia for the influence we previously provided.  Russia seems interested.

*Pro [Syrian] Regime Forces are pushing forward, after having been relatively stalled, and with the help of Russia, are regaining ground.

*Turkey has pushed approx. 30 miles over the border, killed several thousand civilians (along with some actual terrorists), and is preparing to dump several million refugees in that buffer zone with no logistical support.

*ISIS has freed a large number of fighters, and supporters, from prison camps and they have disappeared into the countryside of NE Syria and NW Iraq to regroup and restart offensives from last year, with the help of Iranian backed forces in Iraq.

*The US has effectively lost the ability to influence the outcome of the Syrian Civil war, or the Anti ISIS/ISIL campaign in any meaningful fashion.


From this we have gained...….?

Let me know if anyone can find a news report of soldiers redeploying from CENTCOM.

French G.

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2019, 08:52:07 AM »
Caucus or primary for you favorite Democrat, stick a fork in him, he's done.

And where exactly did Democrats get us with Syria and where would they get us in the future? Voting for the party not in power is a poor strategy when one party is abjectly evil. I realize my plan of voting for the party of abjectly incompetent also has some Iraqi size navy leaks, but no. There is no favorite Democrat, not now, not ever unless the party is burnt and rebuilt. Which is why I like Trump. He destroyed both major parties, just one keeps tossing gas on their own fire. Impeach him, his work is done.

Another Syria anecdote, I grew up just outside a US map for named Syria. I remember, and it was probably 1978 and I was three, asking if we were going to be safe because the TV showed tanks on the move in Syria. It was a problem long before then, it will continue to be a problem for a long time, but by all means blame trump.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 10:03:42 AM by French G. »
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Ben

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2019, 09:00:57 AM »
Caucus or primary for you favorite Democrat, stick a fork in him, he's done.

Trump? I don't see how. Anything anyone (including me) can complain about regarding Trump, what dem has a chance in hell? Most all the contenders (Gabbard is an exception that doesn't have a chance) have gone so far crazy left that they're even turning off some of the crazy left.

As I've said elsewhere, no matter what negatives I see in Trump, his behind the scenes work on federal judges gets him my vote in 2020. Not to mention how bad it would be for the country if any of the current knuckleheads that have a lead on the dem side got in. Otherwise, the only way the left is going to rally at this point is if the do the "Michele Obama is running!" thing.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 09:50:53 AM by Ben »
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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2019, 09:11:39 AM »
Here's where we're at because of this:

*Syrian Kurds, who as was pointed out, already lean Marxist are making overtures to Russia for the influence we previously provided.  Russia seems interested.

*Pro [Syrian] Regime Forces are pushing forward, after having been relatively stalled, and with the help of Russia, are regaining ground.

*Turkey has pushed approx. 30 miles over the border, killed several thousand civilians (along with some actual terrorists), and is preparing to dump several million refugees in that buffer zone with no logistical support.

*ISIS has freed a large number of fighters, and supporters, from prison camps and they have disappeared into the countryside of NE Syria and NW Iraq to regroup and restart offensives from last year, with the help of Iranian backed forces in Iraq.

*The US has effectively lost the ability to influence the outcome of the Syrian Civil war, or the Anti ISIS/ISIL campaign in any meaningful fashion.


From this we have gained...….?

Let me know if anyone can find a news report of soldiers redeploying from CENTCOM.

What do we gain by fomenting and supporting regime change?

What do we gain by guaranteeing the security of the fractious Kurds who everyone over there seem to hate and who share zero political or cultural commonalities with the USA?

 What do we gain by setting up a potential military conflict with a NATO member who is trying to secure its border? (I'm no fan of the Turks).

What do we gain by ignoring the clear mandate of the voters that they want the USA out of the middle east militarily?

Putin now gets the tar baby of Assad, the Kurds, the Turks, Isis and all the other related benefits of the region.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2019, 09:43:08 AM »
What do we gain by fomenting and supporting regime change?
If it works, influence in the region, and help in furthering US goals.  True, it doesn't often work.

What do we gain by guaranteeing the security of the fractious Kurds who share zero political or cultural commonalities with the USA?
Proxies that are willing to fight effectively against our enemies, namely ISIS, and Iranian backed Shia Militia Groups. Keeping the young men that want to be terrorists fighting in the Mideast instead of Europe and North America has been moderately successful.

What do we gain by setting up a potential military conflict with a NATO member who is trying to secure its border? (I'm no fan of the Turks).
That's not what the Turks are doing.  We were actually successfully helping the Turks do that (secure their border) before this flusterlcuck.

What do we gain by ignoring the clear mandate if the voters that they want the USA out of the middle east militarily?
Again, has this move reduced US Military boots on ground in CENTCOM by a single soldier?  I haven't found any news reports of folks redeploying early.  My understanding is US forces are increasing in the mid east.



I'm not a huge fan of the Forever War either, and would be thrilled if we were getting out of the Mideast, if only so I could spend three consecutive years with my wife (which I haven't managed since 2013).  But that's not what this move did.

I suspect it actually made it harder to disengage from the Mideast by the time all the chips fall, and it certainly constrained our options in the region, and helped Iran and Russia become more powerful in the region.  Which will very likely translate to a more belligerent Iran in regards to both shipping and nuclear fuel enrichment.

brimic

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2019, 09:44:39 AM »
What do we gain by fomenting and supporting regime change?

What do we gain by guaranteeing the security of the fractious Kurds who everyone over there seem to hate and who share zero political or cultural commonalities with the USA?

 What do we gain by setting up a potential military conflict with a NATO member who is trying to secure its border? (I'm no fan of the Turks).

What do we gain by ignoring the clear mandate of the voters that they want the USA out of the middle east militarily?

Putin now gets the tar baby of Assad, the Kurds, the Turks, Isis and all the other related benefits of the region.


But but but, we can’t give up on the obama/Clinton/Kerry/McCain/<insert neocon> Middle East policy!!!!
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brimic

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2019, 09:45:12 AM »
Caucus or primary for you favorite Democrat, stick a fork in him, he's done.

 :rofl: :rofl:

No.
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Ron

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2019, 10:18:10 AM »
I'm not a huge fan of the Forever War either, and would be thrilled if we were getting out of the Mideast, if only so I could spend three consecutive years with my wife (which I haven't managed since 2013).  But that's not what this move did.

I suspect it actually made it harder to disengage from the Mideast by the time all the chips fall, and it certainly constrained our options in the region, and helped Iran and Russia become more powerful in the region.  Which will very likely translate to a more belligerent Iran in regards to both shipping and nuclear fuel enrichment.

Unfortunately you are correct, there has been no troop drawdowns in the region as a whole.

I'm not enthusiastic about the "fight them there" neoconservative military adventurism any longer.

When I still had strands of trust in our government it seemed logical.

Now I'm adhearing to a more fundemental principle of defensive action only. Long forbearance of provocations with the use of overwhelming force if push comes to shove.

I'm not signing on to behind the scenes elites using our military to open up new markets or whatever the hell is their plan/goal.




 
   
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

charby

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2019, 01:35:25 PM »
Trump? I don't see how. Anything anyone (including me) can complain about regarding Trump, what dem has a chance in hell? Most all the contenders (Gabbard is an exception that doesn't have a chance) have gone so far crazy left that they're even turning off some of the crazy left.

As I've said elsewhere, no matter what negatives I see in Trump, his behind the scenes work on federal judges gets him my vote in 2020. Not to mention how bad it would be for the country if any of the current knuckleheads that have a lead on the dem side got in. Otherwise, the only way the left is going to rally at this point is if the do the "Michele Obama is running!" thing.

Nope, i think there has been a tipping point where the negative news on Trump isn't going to work in his favor of his any news is good news mantra. I also think the House will eventually Impeach him, probably about the start of the Caucasus and Primary season. Trump didn't win in a landslide in 2016 and I think enough fickle voters are not going to vote for him. The reason I said caucas or primary for you favorite Democrat is to hope the least communist one gets the party's nomination.
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Ben

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2019, 03:47:36 PM »
The reason I said caucas or primary for you favorite Democrat is to hope the least communist one gets the party's nomination.

"Least communist" isn't saying much for any of the front runners.  =(
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brimic

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2019, 07:44:13 PM »
Nope, i think there has been a tipping point where the negative news on Trump isn't going to work in his favor of his any news is good news mantra. I also think the House will eventually Impeach him, probably about the start of the Caucasus and Primary season. Trump didn't win in a landslide in 2016 and I think enough fickle voters are not going to vote for him. The reason I said caucas or primary for you favorite Democrat is to hope the least communist one gets the party's nomination.

Lol. Tipping point? You mean where dems are extremely concerned with the Turkey/Syria border, but not our own borders?
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charby

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2019, 08:27:12 PM »
Lol. Tipping point? You mean where dems are extremely concerned with the Turkey/Syria border, but not our own borders?

No just all the negative Trump news, just seems to keep building and building. Dem candidates will start dropping and the field will narrow, they'll rally behind what is left and through all the support behind the chosen one. I have a feeling Nov 2020 will be the biggest election turnout in years.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 08:56:35 AM by charby »
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DittoHead

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2019, 08:53:45 AM »
I have a felling Nov 2020 will be the biggest election turnout in years.

Which way the election goes seems hard to predict at the moment, but record turnout sounds like a safe bet to me.
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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2019, 09:06:38 AM »
Arab Muslims appear to be incapable of forming free, non-corrupt governments at this point in time.  Nor does it appear that they want them.  Let us acknowledge that fact and quit trying to make them behave.

MechAg94

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2019, 04:06:32 PM »
Nope, i think there has been a tipping point where the negative news on Trump isn't going to work in his favor of his any news is good news mantra. I also think the House will eventually Impeach him, probably about the start of the Caucasus and Primary season. Trump didn't win in a landslide in 2016 and I think enough fickle voters are not going to vote for him. The reason I said caucas or primary for you favorite Democrat is to hope the least communist one gets the party's nomination.
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RocketMan

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2019, 07:10:17 PM »
Which way the election goes seems hard to predict at the moment, but record turnout sounds like a safe bet to me.

Yes, a record turnout of dead, convicted felon and illegal immigrant voters.
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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2019, 09:58:28 PM »
Yes, a record turnout of dead, convicted felon and illegal immigrant voters.

Ding ding ding.

I personally think this is why the Clinton camp didn't bother with endless lawsuits for recounts,  they wouldn't have held up under scrutiny.
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Chester32141

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2019, 09:24:37 AM »
Quote
The Syria withdrawal was supposed to be Trump’s Vietnam, his ISIS nightmare, a genocidal bloodbath. But then a peace deal was announced on Tuesday.

 :O

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/10/president-trump-cheers-news-of-peace-deal-with-safe-zone-negotiated-on-syrian-border-with-turkey/
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MechAg94

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2019, 09:44:45 AM »
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dogmush

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2019, 10:00:48 AM »
I can't read that site on this computer.  I need to get back to my laptop with a VPN, but if it says anything other than "Uneasy ceasefire while all 3 sides dig in and the Turks try and hide the bodies of the civilians they killed last week"  it's a *expletive deleted*ing fantasy.

ETA: So I got to another laptop.  That guy is heralding an agreement between two sides of a four sided conflict.  Also, it's the two sides that were closest to agreeing before Operation Peace Spring. So yea, I guess? The turks are still planning to dump 1 million or so refugees in northern Syria with no logistical support, they are still killing civilians suspected of being or aiding the SDF.  Russia has solidified it's influence in the region, while we have undermined ours, resulting in it being much harder to leave on our terms.  No US soldier has actually gone home, and it's now more dangerous for us in the entire region.

Not to mention the benefits to ISIS of decimating the forces that were fighting them and keeping them in prison.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 11:00:43 AM by dogmush »

Ron

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2019, 05:56:52 PM »
I can't read that site on this computer.  I need to get back to my laptop with a VPN, but if it says anything other than "Uneasy ceasefire while all 3 sides dig in and the Turks try and hide the bodies of the civilians they killed last week"  it's a *expletive deleted*ing fantasy.

ETA: So I got to another laptop.  That guy is heralding an agreement between two sides of a four sided conflict.  Also, it's the two sides that were closest to agreeing before Operation Peace Spring. So yea, I guess? The turks are still planning to dump 1 million or so refugees in northern Syria with no logistical support, they are still killing civilians suspected of being or aiding the SDF.  Russia has solidified it's influence in the region, while we have undermined ours, resulting in it being much harder to leave on our terms.  No US soldier has actually gone home, and it's now more dangerous for us in the entire region.

Not to mention the benefits to ISIS of decimating the forces that were fighting them and keeping them in prison.

So what are the actual known downsides to getting out of Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan?

What is the guaranteed downside?

Not the maybe, not the experts think, not the consensus but the guaranteed.

The guaranteed to happen downside of keeping troops in hostile ME countries is dead American troops.



For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

dogmush

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Re: I think Trump really dropped the ball on Syria and the Kurds
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2019, 01:28:30 AM »
So what are the actual known downsides to getting out of Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan?




That is a much longer conversation, that really merits it's own thread.  It's also not what we are talking about here.

As I said earlier, find me a new article about any soldier redeploying from CENTCOM early as a result of the Syria thing.  No one went home.

What this Syria plan did is make US Force's jobs in the ME harder and more dangerous, and walk back a lot of the gains we HAD made in getting out without leaving a burning crater behind us.  So no one went home, It's more dangerous on ground where the troops are, we are farther from our stated goals, and it's made it harder for us to actually leave the area on the terms we have said we want.