The President and the SEAL

[MillCreek]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-military-seals/trump-and-navy-clash-again-over-seal-commando-who-posed-with-corpse-idUSKBN1XV1LH?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F+US+%2F+Top+News%29

I do not think the President should interject himself into the military justice system in this case.

[RoadKingLarry]

I'd tend to agree with that sentiment under normal conditions.
I do not think the persecution of Chief Gallagher should be considered normal.
If for no other reason than the blatant prosecutorial misconduct that took place.
Prior to Trumps actions in the case there had been no mention of stripping the Chief of his Trident. That decision was a petty and vindictive swipe at Trump.

[French G.]

Yes, this is basic respect my authority stuff. It's Trumps military. You don't go behind your commander's back. I haven't decided if his pardons are good. Part of me thinks they are, war is hell.

Gallagher case, prosecutorial misconduct, over charging, and oops, a witness blew up the case by saying he killed the fighter. Did Gallagher stab the guy? Probably. Did the team practice extremely invasive combat medicine even knowing the insurgent was going to die and their practice wouldn't help that? Most likely. They don't learn that stuff on CPR dummies. But, you bring charges, prove the case. All the stuff trying to take his trident is just sore loser stuff.

The other two cases one maybe a war crime, the other that was already serving time, no.

[HankB]

If I were in Trump's place, I'd be thinking now that a certain Rear Admiral needed to be "stop lossed" and reassigned, as there was a weather station somewhere in northern Greenland that was desperately in need of his personal expertise for the next six months.

[Andiron]

If I were in Trump's place, I'd be thinking now that a certain Rear Admiral needed to be "stop lossed" and reassigned, as there was a weather station somewhere in northern Greenland that was desperately in need of his personal expertise for the next six months.

A perfect solution for otherwise shitty officers.

I HATE the political class aspect of the military.  Anyone north of Captain,  short of the occasional Major is automatically suspect.

That being said,  the opinion of a once E4 is probably worth what you paid for it.

[BobR]

A perfect solution for otherwise shitty officers.

I HATE the political class aspect of the military.  Anyone north of Captain,  short of the occasional Major is automatically suspect.

That being said,  the opinion of a once E4 is probably worth what you paid for it.

As I used to tell the Ensigns the only difference between them and an Airman (E3) was the Airman had already been promoted twice, just letting them know their real worth. Once an O5 has had a command billet (probably before) the evolution to political critter is well underway. I am not sure about the other services but there are way too many people with stars on their collars on active duty in the Navy.

bob

[HeroHog]

My foster brother left the service after hitting the "political ceiling" after they wouldn't promote him to Admiral after all his years of good service.

[Ben]

I don't know enough to give an opinion. Other than on the face of it reading into the news stories, it sure seems like a case of, "We'll teach that Trump a lesson for sticking his nose in." At least for this one particular case, given the backstory.

[MechAg94]

I don't know enough to give an opinion. Other than on the face of it reading into the news stories, it sure seems like a case of, "We'll teach that Trump a lesson for sticking his nose in." At least for this one particular case, given the backstory.

That is the way it sounds to me.  However, I am not sure if that means a housecleaning is in order.  

Given the COC pardoned the guy and he is out of the service, you would think the Admirals would let it go.  I would think that was the political thing to do. 

[dogmush]

I'll take "Undue Command Influence" for $1000, Alex.

Regardless of the reasons the the Navy is holding the review board, it's inappropriate for the CinC to dictate the outcome of an investigation or review before it's completed.  If he doesn't want the trident stripped, then he waits for the board to finish, and then overturns it, like he did with the pardon.

[Ben]

I'll take "Undue Command Influence" for $1000, Alex.

Regardless of the reasons the the Navy is holding the review board, it's inappropriate for the CinC to dictate the outcome of an investigation or review before it's completed.  If he doesn't want the trident stripped, then he waits for the board to finish, and then overturns it, like he did with the pardon.

Good info. Of course Trump will always be known for putting mouth in gear before engaging brain. He may be right regarding not stripping the trident, but this is another instance where he might have been better off putting the twitter down and waiting.

[Ron]

Somehow I suspect the great divide we see across the country is also found in all the branches of the military.

Everyone is choosing sides, individuals as well as institutions.

Have leftists been waging lawfare in the military? From an outsiders perspective it sure looks like the left has made significant progress in seizing control.

Are our generals and admirals worthy of respect due to what they have accomplished and who they are or is it like the presidency, where we are supposed to respect the institution?

[bedlamite]

In a related story, the NYTimes and NBC are fake news again:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/23/eddie-gallagher-navy-secretary-denies-resignation-threat-trump/4284754002/

[dogmush]

Have leftists been waging lawfare in the military? From an outsiders perspective it sure looks like the left has made significant progress in seizing control.

Are our generals and admirals worthy of respect due to what they have accomplished and who they are or is it like the presidency, where we are supposed to respect the institution?

Our Generals and Admirals are human.  Some got where they are by being great leaders, and some got there by being canny and political, some were in the right place at the right time, and most were some combination of all of that.  You should absolutely decide what respect to give them based on their accomplishments.  At a minimum, they completed some very tough schools, showed the ability to think and problem solve, and lead US Service Members.

Just in general you should never extend some special institutional respect to individuals.  The military has it's share of aholes, criminals and commies.

[Hawkmoon]

Are our generals and admirals worthy of respect due to what they have accomplished and who they are or is it like the presidency, where we are supposed to respect the institution?

Some flag officers no doubt deserve some respect for what they have accomplished but I suspect far more are political hacks who have been promoted more by working the system than due to their individual merits and accomplishments. The latter rate a salute for the uniform, but no particular respect for the person wearing it.

I was in the 4th Infantry Division in Vietnam. I never heard anyone say anything complimentary about our commending general (whose name I don't even remember.)

[MillCreek]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/24/us/politics/navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resign.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

It looks as though the Secretary of the Navy is on his way out.

[Hawkmoon]

And he's gone.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/nation-world/navy-seal-murder-case-secretary-fired/507-55dc8ca2-0494-439a-9248-866d609b2995

His resignation has been submitted and accepted.

[RoadKingLarry]

Saw that coming.

[Hawkmoon]

There is a chain of command, which was drilled into us during Army Basic Training. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to figure out that it's not a smart career move to buck the Commander-in-Chief.

[230RN]

I'll take "Undue Command Influence" for $1000, Alex.

Regardless of the reasons the the Navy is holding the review board, it's inappropriate for the CinC to dictate the outcome of an investigation or review before it's completed.  If he doesn't want the trident stripped, then he waits for the board to finish, and then overturns it, like he did with the pardon.

I don't know.  Observing Trump for a while, if it isn't illegal and only customary, he may have wanted to shortstop the glee and joy of the Trump Bad contingent.  Doing it after it was accomplished would be like having it on page 63 of the gardening section.

The iron is hot, so strike it now.

Seems that way to me, given his apparent magic in dealing with the Trump Bad contingent.

Terry

[zxcvbob]

I don't know.  Observing Trump for a while, if it isn't illegal and only customary, he may have wanted to shortstop the glee and joy of the Trump Bad contingent.  Doing it after it was accomplished would be like having it on page 63 of the gardening section.

Seems that way to me, given his apparent magic in dealing with the Trump Bad contingent.

Terry

UCI is more of a problem when the commander pressures for a guilty verdict, and can lead to a conviction being overturned on appeal.  I don't know that there's even a precedent for a commander pushing for acquittal or dropping the charges.  What would the remedy be, anyway?  Double jeopardy would apply.  (IANAL, and especially not a military lawyer)

[Hawkmoon]

Leave it to the NY Times to spin it against Trump. From the NYT link provided earlier:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/24/us/politics/navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resign.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The ousting of Mr. Spencer, first reported by The Washington Post, is the latest turn in an extraordinary story of how Mr. Trump has angered and alienated his own senior military leadership over his interference in how three American service members accused of war crimes have been treated.

The article in Stars & Stripes seems to paint a different picture:

https://www.stripes.com/news/navy/dod-chief-asks-for-navy-secretary-s-resignation-over-private-proposal-in-navy-seal-s-case-1.608539

Apparently [now former] Secretary Spencer tried to cut a deal behind the back of his own boss, offering a "quid pro quo" to Trump while taking a different stance in public, and not telling the SecDef about the deal he had discussed with the C-i-C. The Stars & Stripes article does not appear to suggest even a hint that the senior military officials are "angered and alienated."

[dogmush]

UCI is more of a problem when the commander pressures for a guilty verdict, and can lead to a conviction being overturned on appeal.  I don't know that there's even a precedent for a commander pushing for acquittal or dropping the charges.  What would the remedy be, anyway?  Double jeopardy would apply.  (IANAL, and especially not a military lawyer)

There absolutely is precedent.  See the entire "DOD doesn't prosecute Sexual assault/harassment" bruhaha of the last several years.  Depending on when the UCI happened they go back and run the service members through the system, either NJP (like this Trident Review Board) or full on Courts Marshal.  UCI to drop or stop an investigation is a HUGE deal in the military right now.  We have dedicated Officer Professional Development classes on it.

[Ron]

https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2019/11/25/fire-the-admirals-to-encourage-the-others-n2556977?fbclid=IwAR28YO4S722UYlEcHd_bEJjzv2rqtD2qUhWJ-Jd2CDbFOP1UaVUs5tKXBtg

Interesting read.

Paints the passive aggressive approach some in high positions in the military have employed in a different light.

[RoadKingLarry]

IMO, one of Trumps biggest mistakes was not unilaterally replacing every Obama appointee he has the authority to replace on his first full.day in office.