Drop Dead and Go To Hell, Oregon!

[Fly320s]

Disposable bags for food are safest.  Re-usable bags for groceries increase risk of food poisoning.  This is one reason I am opposed to plastic bag bans of any sort.  The other reason is that I despise the government micromanaging every detail of our lives.

You know you don't put the raw meat directly into the bag, right?  Also, the cloth/canvas bags can be washed.

[makattak]

Also, the cloth/canvas bags can be washed.

And what are the consequences of that to the environment?

If we're going to talk about how bad the plastic bags are, you need to take into account ALL the consequences from using the "reusable" bags.

If I recall correctly, to counterbalance to costs (environmental!) to produce/clean/etc.... the reusable bags, the bags would have be used over (I'm going on the low end here) 500 times. How likely do you think you're going to use that bag that many times? With a weekly trip to the store, we're talking 10 years of using the same bag....

[Jim147]

Save the bags and use them to start your tire fire.

[Chester32141]

Thank you.  $18.56 for 1000 of them with handles.  Have you tried them?  Are they strong enough to carry a gallon of milk, do you know?

Terry, 230RN

I bought a box of this brand last year and they are stronger than normal grocery story bags … 

[charby]

And what are the consequences of that to the environment?

If we're going to talk about how bad the plastic bags are, you need to take into account ALL the consequences from using the "reusable" bags.

If I recall correctly, to counterbalance to costs (environmental!) to produce/clean/etc.... the reusable bags, the bags would have be used over (I'm going on the low end here) 500 times. How likely do you think you're going to use that bag that many times? With a weekly trip to the store, we're talking 10 years of using the same bag....

I've never washed my reusable bags, I've had a few for over ten years. I also don't put unwrapped meat in them either from the butcher counter. I don't put my veggies in a plastic bag either in the produce section, figure all the all the mommas with snot nosed crotch fruits touch them at the store, so I rinse them at home before I consume them. So far I haven't caught dysentery.

[230RN]

I bought a box of this brand* last year and they are stronger than normal grocery store bags …  

Really good to know, and thanks !  When and if it ever comes down to it here in COmmierado, I'lll have a solution ready-to-go.

I think the environmental effects of the plastic bags at least as used by King Soopers (Kroger, City Market) is pretty minimal and is wayyy overblown.  We do have laws about covering trash in transit to the dump, after all.

I keep a wad of them in my car for various things and and I was surprised that they disintegrate all by themselves just from the heat in the car... not even in nice wet bio-rich soil.  Just in air and heat and light in the back of my station wagon.

I don't know about grocery bags hanging in trees... maybe one or two after a high wind or something along with other windblown junk, but not normally and certainly not as routinely as implied.  I hate to offend anyone but I'm about ready to call BS on that one.  Or maybe just "exaggeration for the sake of a good story."

Yeah, that's the ticket.  Triggered by one, told to be ten.

Thanks again, Chester32141.

Terry, 230RN

*He's referring to these, in Reply #15:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Members-Mark-Black-T-Shirt-Carryout-Bags-1-000-ct-Best-Plastic-Quality/352552845005?epid=17034146429&hash=item5215c97ecd:g:AEEAAO

[charby]

For the record I really don't want the bags banned, just tired of cleaning them up in my yard and pond.

[Pb]

You know you don't put the raw meat directly into the bag, right?  Also, the cloth/canvas bags can be washed.

People aren't going to wash their reusable bags after every time they put their groceries in them.

And, as a result, plastic bag bans increase food-borne illnesses and related deaths.

That is what happened when San Francisco banned them:

https://law.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/klick_grocery_bags_and_foodborne_illness.pdf

Plastic bags are much safer.  

[230RN]

^
I kind of suspected that on a "General Principles" kind of thing.

Take that, you do-gooder life-meddlers !

Of course, San Francisco has all kinds of germs floating around everywhere anyhow.

[charby]

People aren't going to wash their reusable bags after every time they put their groceries in them.

And, as a result, plastic bag bans increase food-borne illnesses and related deaths.

That is what happened when San Francisco banned them:

https://law.utexas.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/25/klick_grocery_bags_and_foodborne_illness.pdf

Plastic bags are much safer.  

Was the numbers of food borne illnesses higher before plastic shopping bags? I remember then first coming out in the mid 80's in the grocery stores back home.

[Pb]

Was the numbers of food borne illnesses higher before plastic shopping bags? I remember then first coming out in the mid 80's in the grocery stores back home.

I don't know.

It spiked in SF and other cities after plastic bag bans though.

Including more people dying.

[BobR]

I don't know.

It spiked in SF and other cities after plastic bag bans though.

Including more people dying.

Well, it that really a bad thing?


bob

[MechAg94]

Plastic bags for groceries have to go.

I used to be po'd at "people" for seeing them littered around the roads and stuck in trees.

Then in dawned on me where they come from.

Garbage trucks. 

Can't tell you how many times Ive seen debris blowing out of a truck transporting garbage.

That sounds like a correctable problem with local politicians cared to do something about it.  I am confident plastic grocery bags were not the only trash blowing out.

[K Frame]

If plastic shopping bags are outlawed, how the hell am I going to clean up when Seren takes a *expletive deleted*it?

[230RN]

^
Tough ***t, Mike.

The trouble is, these do-gooder life-meddlers seem to think what's good for them ought to be good for everybody.

So they run for public office so they can force everybody to do it "their way."

Hence Ben's thread title sentiment: "Drop dead and go to hell, Oregon."

Effing control freaks, is all they are.

Frankly, I'd rather we elect de-control freaks.


Sanitation and germiness and convenience aside, BTR kind of hit the nail on the head with:

The other reason is that I despise the government micromanaging every detail of our lives.

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

The plastic grocery/trash bags littering the whole country and filling up landfills are a classic example of the "tragedy of the commons".

Nobody wants to give up their convenience so the roadsides etc are littered with trash.

I use paper almost exclusively, it's biodegradable and is a renewable resource.

First, plastic grocery bags are not filling up our landfills.  They may have volume when blowing around, but they are thin and don't actually take up any space.  IMO, road sides littered with trash is a behavioral problem and won't be fixed by banning specific plastic things.  I agree that trash on the road sides looks bad.  I get stuff blown in my yard, but it is mostly napkins and little plastic food/candy wrappers, not the bags.  

I would like to see some comparisons on how long the paper and dyes last in a landfill versus the plastic bags.  Non-disposable and repairable materials would be a better choice.  From what others said they have to be cleaned and maintained which people won't always do.  That makes me wonder if they clean their kitchens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWbhhrRBHns

[230RN]

As I mentioned, they seem to decay into little bitty pieces just sitting in the back of my station wagon with no moist soil or birds picking at them.  I was quite surprised when I first discovered that they were car-o-degradable.

[Ben]

Effing control freaks, is all they are.

And as with everything "they" stick their noses into (this, electric cars, CARB gas cans, etc.), it's always about the stick instead of the carrot. They could easily find ways to incentivize reusable bags, or do passive enforcement through education (not scolding education, but, "this is how X can make your life better/easier" education).

Instead, it's always bans, fines, and "The Earth will die in 10 years and you're making it happen!" crap.

[cordex]

As I mentioned, they seem to decay into little bitty pieces just sitting in the back of my station wagon with no moist soil or birds picking at them.  I was quite surprised when I first discovered that they were car-o-degradable.

I've seen the same thing.  I bet that is UV or heat related.  Might not break down as quickly buried in a low oxygen environment?

[K Frame]

"I would like to see some comparisons on how long the paper and dyes last in a landfill versus the plastic bags."

What most people don't realize is that land fills, especially modern containment landfills, are more time capsule/item preservation than they are biodegradation zones.

[cordex]

What most people don't realize is that land fills, especially modern containment landfills, are more time capsule/item preservation than they are biodegradation zones.

When it makes financial sense they'll probably eventually become mines.

[230RN]

I've fantasied about archeologists 5000 years from now trying to identify some of the artifacts from one of today's dumps.

Probably most of them would be attributed to religious relics and papers (or the 7020AD equivalent thereof) would be published, and great scientific arguments about the real purpose of a burned-out 100 Watt light bulb would ensue.

"Nonsense !" parJarel shouted when he finished the latest theory on those curious glass relics.  "Why those lectrons would never be able to get up that spiral on the little end of the thing !  Modern mokides could, but those mythical lectrons?  Never !  Where did that idiot get his Hyperdoctorate degree anyway?"

Terry, 230RN

[K Frame]

"Probably most of them would be attributed to religious relics and papers (or the 7020AD equivalent thereof) would be published, and great scientific arguments about the real purpose of a burned-out 100 Watt light bulb would ensue."

Ever read the humor book Motel of the Mysteries?

It's a book written from exactly that kind of point of view. It's extremely humorous what people thing things from the ancient civilization of Usa were used for.

Not sure if it's still in print, but it's well worth finding it: https://books.google.com/books/about/Motel_of_the_Mysteries.html?id=dO3vf15Gxd0C

[K Frame]

I kept thinking about how fun Motel of the Mysteries was... so I ordered it from Amazon.

$12.60 (price + tax), and here tomorrow.

I need another book like I need a hole in the head, but hey, maybe I can use pages torn out of the book and crumpled up to fill the hole in my head.

[RocketMan]

When it makes financial sense they'll probably eventually become mines.

I've often wondered about this very thing.  Could major landfills that have been on existence for a long time yield profitable amounts of useful materials?