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Author Topic: I don't need Congress to forgive your student loan debt!  (Read 1068 times)
Mike Irwin
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« on: January 14, 2020, 07:39:13 AM »

Say what?

I think Congress might have something to say about that, and I hope to hell that the courts would, as well...

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/elizabeth-warren-says-she-can-forgive-student-loan-debt-without-congress.html
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MechAg94
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 07:49:40 AM »

Wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the interest rate to zero so the debt no longer compounds?  I heard that idea mentioned the other day.  Made more sense as a compromise than just canceling the debt.  Some of these people were completely irresponsible and I hate to reward that.  They could also stop giving student loans for unproductive degrees or at least limit the loan amounts if the average starting pay isn't high enough to pay it.
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MillCreek
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 07:50:11 AM »

This is actually a far more important story on student loan debt.  If this now becomes state of the art in bankruptcy court, I predict a whole lot of filings.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loans-discharged-in-bankruptcy-kevin-rosenberg-190151284.html
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 08:05:33 AM »

If this sort of thing happens on a mass scale, I predict it's going to be pretty hard to find a student loan.
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 08:25:33 AM »

Wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the interest rate to zero so the debt no longer compounds?  I heard that idea mentioned the other day.  Made more sense as a compromise than just canceling the debt.  Some of these people were completely irresponsible and I hate to reward that.  They could also stop giving student loans for unproductive degrees or at least limit the loan amounts if the average starting pay isn't high enough to pay it.

It would make more sense for students not to take out loans they cannot repay.
Alternately -- since we all know students are too stoopid to realize they will be unable to repay these loans,  hit the universities. They're taking in pallets of $$$' and building glamorous new buildings and loading all of 'em up with administrators who push pencils and whack computer keyboards.  Make THEM take the loot and help ameliorate the student loan problem. angry
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 08:35:08 AM »

Wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the interest rate to zero so the debt no longer compounds?  I heard that idea mentioned the other day.  Made more sense as a compromise than just canceling the debt.  Some of these people were completely irresponsible and I hate to reward that.  They could also stop giving student loans for unproductive degrees or at least limit the loan amounts if the average starting pay isn't high enough to pay it.

If you boil it down, every degree is productive. It demonstrates that a person can be trained and complete a set a goals to reach an end result. A person with a women's studies degree could work for a marketing firm to market to that targeted audience. Applied science degrees are easy to target a job because you got a degree in an very narrowly focused area, such as a Mechanical Engineer is going to do Mechanical Engineering things, Agronomist is going to be involved in Agriculture of some sort, etc.

The other crappy part is most careers that actually will pay decent lifelong increasing wages requires some sort of secondary education on the part of the person. Outside of trade unions, I don't see a whole lot of careers that have on the job training as progress your career starting from the bottom.

But I agree with you, lowering the interest rates to zero or 1% would make a lot of sense, you'd have a much lower payment each month over the life of the loan. Even go as far as eliminating the compounded interest, go back to initial loan balance, and reset the payments.



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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 08:53:17 AM »

Wouldn't it make more sense to just lower the interest rate to zero so the debt no longer compounds?  I heard that idea mentioned the other day.  Made more sense as a compromise than just canceling the debt.  Some of these people were completely irresponsible and I hate to reward that.  They could also stop giving student loans for unproductive degrees or at least limit the loan amounts if the average starting pay isn't high enough to pay it.


NO! Why should (insert preference pronoun here) be expected to pay for its PhD in the Lesbionics of Outer Mongolian Basket Weaving in the Middle Ages?

It's Orangeman's fault that they can't find a job paying more than (insert whatever minimum wage it thinks is fair) a year! That's not livable!
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 09:05:49 AM »

If this sort of thing happens on a mass scale, I predict it's going to be pretty hard to find a student loan.

... then the FedGov will take over the student loan business and issue loans according to its own criteria.

If you think the deficit is bad now ...
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 09:27:52 AM »

If you boil it down, every degree is productive. It demonstrates that a person can be trained and complete a set a goals to reach an end result. A person with a women's studies degree could work for a marketing firm to market to that targeted audience. Applied science degrees are easy to target a job because you got a degree in an very narrowly focused area, such as a Mechanical Engineer is going to do Mechanical Engineering things, Agronomist is going to be involved in Agriculture of some sort, etc.

The other crappy part is most careers that actually will pay decent lifelong increasing wages requires some sort of secondary education on the part of the person. Outside of trade unions, I don't see a whole lot of careers that have on the job training as progress your career starting from the bottom.

But I agree with you, lowering the interest rates to zero or 1% would make a lot of sense, you'd have a much lower payment each month over the life of the loan. Even go as far as eliminating the compounded interest, go back to initial loan balance, and reset the payments.




If you look at the story Millcreek posted, he got a law degree after a fairly long period of time then decided he didn't like it and quit.  IMO, that is the definition of unproductive. 
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 11:21:29 AM »

It would make more sense for students not to take out loans they cannot repay.


Oh, hell. That would presuppose that the aforementioned students understand that they will some day bet required to repay the loans, and I think a lot of them don't comprehend that at all. It's like the fact that they have to start paying the loans back comes as a big surprise after they graduate.
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 12:33:19 PM »

If you boil it down, every degree is productive. It demonstrates that a person can be trained and complete a set a goals to reach an end result.
I don't think productive is the same as signalling.  In this context, productive would seem to imply that the education will be of value to the student over and above the cost of the degree.

For that matter, the signalling value of many degrees is very low today.  I don't know to what extent that is because colleges are simply graduating sub-par students at a higher rate, the larger group of people being initially accepted into colleges are on average of reduced quality, or the quality of education as a whole has fallen, but I can say with confidence that few companies today will rely on a generic college degree as any sort of signal as to the quality of the prospective employee.  As an employer I wouldn't necessary assume a degree indicates someone is capable of training any more than a Twitter account implies skill at communication.
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 12:44:23 PM »

In this context, productive would seem to imply that the education will be of value to the student over and above the cost of the degree.

Over the course of a career, the cost of really any degree should be repaid over and over. Most recent 4 year (or even 2 year) graduates aren't going to be paid a annual salary that is more than the cost of their education in their first few years of employment.

I agree that 4 year schools do need to tighten their enrolment standards, well at least make the not so stellar students complete their AA/AS first and transfer as a junior.
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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 09:01:02 PM »

There absolutely are degree programs that are not productive in any sense of the word.  E.g. pretty much anything offered at Fairhaven College at Western Washington University, or Evergreen State College.

Colleges need to do a whole lot more than just tighten up the enrollment standards.  They need to have skin in the game.  No more $$ from Uncle Sugar would help that out a lot.  Including complete privateization of student loans.  Eliminate the federal guarantee and make them bankruptable.  The criteria for getting the loans will quickly be more than ability to fog a mirror.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2020, 04:44:27 AM »

"I agree that 4 year schools do need to tighten their enrolment standards, well at least make the not so stellar students complete their AA/AS first and transfer as a junior."

ROFL!

Why should they do that when Federally backed student loans are essentially a warrant for a school to mint money?
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« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2020, 05:31:47 AM »

"I agree that 4 year schools do need to tighten their enrolment standards, well at least make the not so stellar students complete their AA/AS first and transfer as a junior."

ROFL!

Why should they do that when Federally backed student loans are essentially a warrant for a school to mint money?

I don't think it's a fed problem, I just looked up the max fed loans one could borrow as a junior/senior and it is $7500 per year. Frosh/Soph is less than that amount. That doesn't cover 2 semester's tuition at many schools. So either you are paying the difference out of pocket or taking out non federal loans to make up the difference.

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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2020, 05:49:52 AM »

Over the course of a career, the cost of really any degree should be repaid over and over.
Should be, but I doubt it is in many cases.  Especially compared to the opportunity cost of immediately entering the workforce.

Most recent 4 year (or even 2 year) graduates aren't going to be paid a annual salary that is more than the cost of their education in their first few years of employment.
Of course not.  The correct comparison is between the lifetime difference in salaries for someone who gets a degree vs does not.  For some degrees there is absolutely no question that there is a net salary benefit.  For others I absolutely do not believe that to be the case.  This is especially true for degree programs that do not have a direct application to the field that the student ends up in.  The signalling value is vastly lower than fifty years ago.

I have a couple of degrees in IT stuff that have probably been borderline in value when it comes to contributing to my salary.  Work experience and working my way through college in the field had far more to do with my capabilities and career advancement than my degrees.  I don't regret college but I'm not sure I could make a strong case that it has massively benefited me.  And that was with taking transferable courses at a cheap community college for the first year, never switching majors, paying my way through a state university without taking any loans, and really cheaping out on textbooks.  

For someone who comes out of school with an expensive degree that has limited or no direct application to their career, I have a hard time believing they are on average better served in the long run than spending those four years gaining work experience and starting adult life with zero debt.
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2020, 05:52:32 AM »

There absolutely are degree programs that are not productive in any sense of the word.  E.g. pretty much anything offered at Fairhaven College at Western Washington University, or Evergreen State College.

Colleges need to do a whole lot more than just tighten up the enrollment standards.  They need to have skin in the game.  No more $$ from Uncle Sugar would help that out a lot.  Including complete privateization of student loans.  Eliminate the federal guarantee and make them bankruptable.  The criteria for getting the loans will quickly be more than ability to fog a mirror.

Complete privatization would exclude a lot of people from achieving a higher education and create a class of elitists. At least our ancestors had the foresight to create public universities (1785 first one) so non wealthy class were able to achieve higher education and improve their financial status. Imagine a lot of Ivy league schools as the only option to achieve a 4 year or higher degree. Or worse, a lot of for profit schools. We all see how many of those end up.

I am familiar with the schools you mentioned, not quite sure what I think about their programs.

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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2020, 06:05:48 AM »

And $7,500 times as many students as you can pack in is.... MONEY!
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2020, 06:07:56 AM »


For someone who comes out of school with an expensive degree that has limited or no direct application to their career, I have a hard time believing they are on average better served in the long run than spending those four years gaining work experience and starting adult life with zero debt.

Perhaps today, if that person is able to secure a job/career path where they can advance. I'm just thinking of the jobs where I live where a recent HS graduate would get a job with no experience at all that paid more than min wage (still going to need to live with Mom and Dad for a while, because no one rents to teenagers)Warehouse picking, meat packing, chicken egg houses, pork confinements and roofing, some of those are a maybe because liability insurance requires employees to be 21 and older.

Would you hire a kid fresh out of HS to work beside you? Would you even look at their resume if it came across your desk with a stack of others?

2007/2008 getting a job out of HS in many areas was impossible, so kids went to college for anything to ride out the Great Recession.
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2020, 06:49:47 AM »

Would you hire a kid fresh out of HS to work beside you? Would you even look at their resume if it came across your desk with a stack of others?
Depends on the job, the other candidates, and the rest of their resume.  Probably wouldn't be my first pick, but for an entry level position I might be inclined to interview them over someone with a gender studies degree, or a composition degree or something.  Or, for that matter, an archaeology degree or horticultural degree or psychology degree.  Not that those degrees aren't potentially valuable in their own sphere, but they wouldn't necessarily contribute to that person's abilities in my line of work, and their salary expectations would likely not be commensurate with their skill levels.
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2020, 07:51:38 AM »

Its a complex problem but has been made many times worse by gov involvement and the predatory involvement of colleges, universities, and lending institutions.
The colleges and universities have lobbied congress to increase student loans availability and to drastically raise limits and encourage borrowing. the learning institutions have then drastically raised tuition to capture those dollars and increase irrelevant social degree programs and fund every kind of wacky research project by wacky socialist professors.
I know of one recent graduate that used the remaining balance of his borrowed student loan funds to buy or lease a new Audi upon graduation (because he thought it would help his "professional image") and another that went on a 2 week trip to Ireland to (as a graduation present to herself)- the same graduate a year later was crying that she wasn't making enough money to meet her payment obligations on her 200k student loan.
Forgive those loans? Hell no.
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2020, 10:04:54 AM »

https://www.uillinois.edu/about/budget

Here is an example of a University's budget. If you really think you can do better, there is still plenty of time to file to run for office in your own state. No excuses, step up to the call, beat your local unbeatable democrat, because you know better then they do.




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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2020, 12:56:33 PM »

Because of the rise of the HR industry, you need a degree to get passed the gatekeepers- who often have worthless degrees themselves.

Quote
Would you hire a kid fresh out of HS to work beside you? Would you even look at their resume if it came across your desk with a stack of others?

Yes, I'd hire my son in a heartbeat. He's taken more advanced math and has a greater mastery of it than a lot of the 'degreed*' people I work with. Most of my job is algebra, and lifting things- he's great at both.

*Its pretty well known that the local UW campus has a very dumbed down chemistry program (I'm pretty sure they are offering a B.A. program), I've worked with a lot of not very bright people who came from that particular school, who wouldn't have made the cut at other schools.
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2020, 03:38:48 PM »


Bitching about theoretical objections to her proposal misses the point.

It's pie in the sky to attract voters with high student loan debts.  This could be a substantial voting bloc.

As usual with leftists, the practicalities don't enter into the picture.

It's the emotional impact that counts.

In fact, the practicality is simply that the practicality doesn't matter.

Terry, 230RN

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Quote
Speaker at a rally: "Come the revolution and you will all be dining on steak."

Somedude on the floor: "But I don't want to dine on steak."

"Well, come the revolution and you will all be living in palaces."

"But I don't want to live in a big palace."

"Come the revolution and you will all be driving Cadillacs."

"But I don't want to drive a Cadillac."

"Listen, you.  Come the revolution and you will do as you're damned well told!"


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(Accidentally erased, reposted from file.)
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2020, 06:17:14 PM »

"It's pie in the sky to attract voters with high student loan debts.  This could be a substantial voting bloc."

Gee, ya think?

 I guess that's the 1st time a Democrat has done this in this entire campaign!

When I posted, the entire concept was about her saying she didn't require Congress to eliminate student loan debts.

Her only method of doing it would be through executive order, and I sort of doubt that that would stand up to scrutiny of the courts.

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