Author Topic: Fighting back in Alabama  (Read 3744 times)

charby

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2020, 09:40:34 AM »
What he said. It's only an either/or if we as a society allow it to be. Also, I specifically gave examples of easy, very low cost birth control options. "Pay a lot less for birth control options" is already a thing.

And on a tangent, I wonder how $5/mo for recreational birth control pills make people with terrible illnesses, who have to pay hundreds of dollars a month for life preserving medication, feel? We practically give away recreational drugs while charging people an arm and a leg for lifesaving drugs, when maybe it should be the other way around, or at least equal on the low cost.

That's a different argument, go start a thread on cost/accessibility of life saving drugs.
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MechAg94

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2020, 10:33:36 AM »
Shoplifting/theft and Abortion are 2 separate things. Neither is germane.
Of course they are not the same thing.  But you are arguing that we shouldn't outlaw something since people will just do it in an unsafe manner when it is illegal.  That may be an argument for legalizing drugs, but is it really a good argument for killing an 8.5 month old unborn baby?
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MechAg94

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 10:36:34 AM »
You know that isn't an option, neither one of use is controlling anything, we are at the subject to the decisions of whomever is elected to "represent" us.
It is only not an option because people have given up on it.  Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.  If people knew there was no help, they might think about that stuff a bit more. 

But that really doesn't matter.  Birth control is easily obtained and cheap.  Making it free won't change the bad decisions that some people still make. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

charby

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2020, 10:39:21 AM »
Of course they are not the same thing.  But you are arguing that we shouldn't outlaw something since people will still do it in an unsafe manner.  If there is a societal reason for outlawing something, then do it.  You don't leave it legal just because people might hurt themselves if it were illegal. 

I'll take your approach, use of automobiles is one the highest cause of death/injury in the US, need to make private ownership and private operation illegal.

Ride the bus spunky! Tough crap if you have to walk 10 miles up hill in both directions in 30" of snow to the nearest bus stop to get to the doctor/walmart/work/welfare check.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2020, 10:46:57 AM »
Ya take a night off for Valentine's Day, and this is what happens...

Did we decide yet whether forcing men to get vasectomies is pro-choice?
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cordex

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2020, 10:47:16 AM »
Your last paragraph is a ridiculous argument.
Intentionally. It was ridiculous when you used it too.

If the action is wrong to begin with then making that action safer or cleaner or cheaper or reducing the impact to the people who commit it isn’t the obvious solution.  If (as pro-abortionists like yourself believe) there is nothing wrong with abortion then of course it would be nice for it to be safer, cleaner, cheaper, etc.

What are they fighting back against? Men who don't have the same body parts, men who don't have the burden of carrying a child to term, I have no clue what it is personally like to have a child, how can I make a decision for that sex that does.
If, as you claim, they have already won and they are in no danger of losing then there is nothing to fight back against, is there?

Also, the gender discrimination you propose that says that one gender may not speak out about issues that primarily impact another gender seems to only go one way, doesn’t it?  Would you demand a woman shut her mouth if she has opinions about issues that primarily impact men?

Finally, you presume that all women are in favor of legal abortion. They are not. Or would you demand they shut their mouths for having the wrong opinion too?  All that said, if you believe that as a man it would be wrong of you to have an opinion about abortion, why can you speak up in favor of it?

There is no red herring, if you can separate yourself from your emotions and actually listen to the prochoice people, they are really advocating for ways to reduce the need for abortions while not making them illegal. Certain groups of people do not want sex education or ability for cheap/easy to get birth control because it goes against their beliefs, so everyone should be subject to those beliefs. What happened to if you don't want something, don't do it/buy it. Excuse your little Sally/Johnny from sex ed, but don't complain if they become teen parents or catch herpes. 
As with any group there are diverse opinions. There are pro-abortion those who dislike abortion but want to keep it safe, legal, and rare. There are others who want to normalize it, expand it, and even celebrate it.

You keep pointing at the anti-abortionists who are also anti-birth control as the norm, when they are not.

As far as the “if you don’t like something, don’t do it”, that only applies when the action in question doesn’t have a direct victim.  Hence you having no problem with making theft, rape, murder, illegal.  As a pro-abortionist you either believe that there is no victim of abortion or the victim doesn’t matter compared to the mom’s preferences. An anti-abortionist believes that an unborn child can be a victim, and thus is deserving of societal protection.

So yes, red herring.  

Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2020, 10:49:28 AM »
I am not living inside a womb. So how can I make decisions for those who are?
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cordex

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2020, 10:49:39 AM »
Did we decide yet whether forcing men to get vasectomies is pro-choice?
It is fighting back, so it is justified.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2020, 10:51:40 AM »
It is fighting back, so it is justified.

I would agree with that, but I'm just not on board with this choice stuff. We went to a Chinese restaurant last night, and the menu had, like, way more than one item you could get. It was disgusting! We got up and left.
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MechAg94

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2020, 10:53:13 AM »
I'll take your approach, use of automobiles is one the highest cause of death/injury in the US, need to make private ownership and private operation illegal.

Ride the bus spunky! Tough crap if you have to walk 10 miles up hill in both directions in 30" of snow to the nearest bus stop to get to the doctor/walmart/work/welfare check.
In the example of automobiles, we have decided to accept that bad outcomes are going to happen in order to maintain our freedom of individual travel.............but the drivers are not intentionally causing vehicle accidents.  That is just a result of people making mistakes.  That is not the same thing as doctors starting black market abortion clinics and intentionally causing harm.  

Maybe they should start back alley adoption centers instead.  I wonder what would happen if there was a legal way to sell a baby for adoption.  Probably a lot of unintended consequences in that.

I edited my original post a bit before I saw your post.  
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 11:09:51 AM by MechAg94 »
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MechAg94

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2020, 11:04:34 AM »
As far as the “if you don’t like something, don’t do it”, that only applies when the action in question doesn’t have a direct victim.  Hence you having no problem with making theft, rape, murder, illegal.  As a pro-abortionist you either believe that there is no victim of abortion or the victim doesn’t matter compared to the mom’s preferences. An anti-abortionist believes that an unborn child can be a victim, and thus is deserving of societal protection.

That is where a lot of the argument comes down to.  Do you believe there is a victim in abortion?

And remember, we are not just talking about 2 week old pregnancies, the debate lately has been about 8.5 or 9 month old pregnancies since some states were looking to pass restrictions on late term abortion.   I used to be more sympathetic to the pro-choice side, but that stuff is just wrong IMO.

You have to admit that there are politicians like Ralph Northam in Virginia who think it is okay to kill the baby after the birth.  I realize everyone focuses on the extremists on the other side, but that is pretty damn extreme.  I hope the number of people who support that is very small.
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WLJ

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2020, 11:14:02 AM »
So their counter to something that may actually save lives is something that is flat out off the wall stupid and could be considered Orwellian.
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charby

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2020, 11:19:58 AM »
Rock, paper, scissors, you guys need to choose to go one ata time.

Ones waiting for their turn, go foster/adopt those mistakes.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2020, 11:39:25 AM »
It is fighting back, so it is justified.
  ???  It's a  totally rediculous way of "fighting back."   It violates the principle of "homo corpus."  

Atleast in the abortion argument,  those against it are arguing for the preservation of the life of the unborn since they regard it as a life unto it's own.  Now,  I understand the pro-choice argument; women want to control what happens to their own bodies.  Fair enough, I suppose.  
But desiring to control their own bodies while proposing a law that denies it to men is a hypocrisy.  I get the "tit for tat" concept of this,  which is another way of looking at it, I guess .... doesn't make it right, though.

Anyway,   this is never going to become law .... and legal abortion isn't going away.  It might be modified by denying late-term abortion,  but it isn't going away.  

I suppose people who consider all abortion murder will have to reconcIle themselves with the idea that God is the final Universal Arbiter of Justice ......
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2020, 12:50:38 PM »
Rock, paper, scissors, you guys need to choose to go one ata time.

Ones waiting for their turn, go foster/adopt those mistakes.

Are you calling children mistakes?

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charby

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2020, 01:20:39 PM »
Are you calling children mistakes?



Reading between the lines from what has been posted above (not you), it appears that some (some not most) think that bastard or not bastard children born to the poor ignorant unwed people resulting from sex for pleasure is a mistake on the part of the people involved.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2020, 02:04:13 PM »
Reading between the lines from what has been posted above (not you), it appears that some (some not most) think that bastard or not bastard children born to the poor ignorant unwed people resulting from sex for pleasure is a mistake on the part of the people involved.

OK

In that same post, you raised an argument so often brought out by those who refuse to say that unborn children have a right to live. It's the argument that goes, "I think it's OK to kill these children, so you should feel bad if you don't adopt a kid, or if you don't vote for social spending program x, y, and/or z."

That one takes a tremendous amount of nerve. If someone won't even take the position that killing little children in the womb should be illegal, they need to fix themselves before they worry about what I'm doing.
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charby

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2020, 03:51:13 PM »
OK

In that same post, you raised an argument so often brought out by those who refuse to say that unborn children have a right to live. It's the argument that goes, "I think it's OK to kill these children, so you should feel bad if you don't adopt a kid, or if you don't vote for social spending program x, y, and/or z."

That one takes a tremendous amount of nerve. If someone won't even take the position that killing little children in the womb should be illegal, they need to fix themselves before they worry about what I'm doing.

Not everyone feels the same way you do about the fetus/zygote/child that can't live outside the womb. I think it takes some "nerve" to actually believe that everyone should have the same feels as you do.

Nerve? Are we quoting 1980's soap operas?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2020, 04:21:20 PM »
Not everyone feels the same way you do about the fetus/zygote/child that can't live outside the womb. I think it takes some "nerve" to actually believe that everyone should have the same feels as you do.

Nerve? Are we quoting 1980's soap operas?

Yeah, I'm totally unaware that people have different opinions. Sure, that's a logical thing for you to conclude.

Actually, I think everyone should believe that humans have basic rights. I think everyone should be opposed to slavery and murder and talking in theaters. Odd, I know, but I just think that would be better.

You think "having nerve" is a soap opera reference? OK, not sure where you get that idea.
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charby

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2020, 04:34:02 PM »


You think "having nerve" is a soap opera reference? OK, not sure where you get that idea.

Overheard it a lot on the tube when mom watching soaps in the other room as a kid in the early 80s. That and "you are so naïve" was another popular line.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting back in Alabama
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2020, 05:04:40 PM »
Overheard it a lot on the tube when mom watching soaps in the other room as a kid in the early 80s. That and "you are so naïve" was another popular line.

Oddly specific, as they say.
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