Author Topic: Airline Seatback Wars  (Read 3400 times)

Ben

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2020, 07:59:58 AM »
In reply #23, Dogmush explained my "people want first class" hyperbole statement much better than I did. They want the absolute cheapest airfare, literally often choosing to pay $25 less for a five hour flight when that $25 could get them five hours of more comfortable (or less uncomfortable) seating. Then they complain about the seats.

His Southwest comment was also spot on. Fly320s can better explain (or tell me I'm wrong), but I recall "cheap seats" on major airlines started because people were booking sardine can flights on the smaller airlines to save literally a few bucks. If the major airlines remove seats and charge more, infrequent flyers are not going to gladly pay 5% more - they are going to fight for seats on the no frills airlines, all over $20-$100.
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Fly320s

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2020, 09:22:49 AM »
Fly320s can better explain (or tell me I'm wrong), but I recall "cheap seats" on major airlines started because people were booking sardine can flights on the smaller airlines to save literally a few bucks. If the major airlines remove seats and charge more, infrequent flyers are not going to gladly pay 5% more - they are going to fight for seats on the no frills airlines, all over $20-$100.

I just fly the plane.  I don't pretend to understand how the business is run, prices are set, or how many seats should be installed.

But... from my experience, the cheap seats fill up first.  When I first started at my airline 19 years ago, our A320s were configured with 162 coach-class seats.  No first or business class.  All coach at the same pitch.  We filled those seats.  Later, we took out a full row of seats to increase pitch, decrease the required number of flight attendants (from 4 to 3), and to save weight so we can do non-stop transcons. We also filled those seats.  I have no idea how much money we made or lost because of those 6 fewer seats, but we are still in business so something worked right.  More recently, we added that row back in, but we also changed the type of seats, and added pitch to some rows.  We still make money, I assume, but I'm not sure if the extra row of seats is what keeps us afloat.  We fly 320s and 321s with four different seating configurations, which allows 150 to 200 seats.  Only one configuration has first/business-class seats.  The business routes usually get the newer seats/interior with more legroom and the vacation routes usually get the high-density seating.

What does it all mean?  All the airlines spend a huge amount of time and money to optimize their routes, prices, and seating.  Every metric is tracked and analyzed.  Which means that the people/routes who are willing to pay more have been identified and they get the better seats/plane.  People/routes who want a cheap ticket to vacationland get fewer perks.  It isn't a perfect delineation, but it works well enough from what I understand of it.

If you want max perks at minimum pricing, fly during off-peak times/months.  Also join your airline's frequent flyer club or use points from your CC to upgrade your seat.  Mid January to last week was a very slow time for travel.  I think we averaged around 70% seat capacity.  September through Early November is also a slow time for leisure travel.  Some destinations that are popular for business travelers and tourists never really slow down.  Orlando is always busy.  Major business city to major business city is always busy.  You'll pay more for travel flexibility than for locking your options into one flight.

Summary:  airlines are a business and they are trying to maximize profits by minimizing costs and increasing revenues.  Ticket costs are very low overall, even if you personally paid a high price for your ticket.  The airlines are making a few cents/per passenger/flight overall, so more seats means more revenue.  More seats generally means less legroom.

Here is a good explaination:  https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/travel-transport-and-logistics/our-insights/a-better-approach-to-airline-costs

This shows the Revenue per Availble Seat Mile (RASM) for US airlines.  The highest is 16.5 cents for each seat flown one mile.  Not profit, just revenue.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/527810/us-airlines-domestic-revenue-per-asm/

Subtract the Cost per Available Seat Mile (CASM) and you get profit (more or less).  The CASM for the above example was 7.5 cents.  So, roughly 9 cents of profit per seat per mile.

There is a ton of data out there to track how well/poorly each airline makes a profit.  You can track by aircraft type, city pairs, and time of year. 

Right now, the airlines are making big profits in part because they have learned to maximize revenue and in part because the economy is doing well right now.  If the Corvid virus panic reaches the US, you'll see those revenues fall like an anvil.  I expect all of the US airlines that fly to Asia to take a big financial hit this quarter.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2020, 10:27:44 AM »
Not to pick on you specifically Brad, but I hear this a lot from folks that don't like flying (often from folks in the small seats) But in practice, customers almost unanimously choose small seats and no frills to save $30 on the fair.  There's been a lot of studies by airlines and the travelocity/kayak type agents, and the race to the bottom that domestic airlines are finishing up is driven by the fact that folks buy on schedule and fare.  Not comfort, or seat room, or meals, or any of the things folks complain about not having.

Like Ben I consciously pay more for at least premium coach when I fly, but almost everyone I talk to in that section is a pretty frequent flyer. The "once every year or two, or less" flyers overwhelmingly buy the cheapest ticket they can find, then dislike the flight.

You get what you pay for.

Yeah, I know. And looking back at yesterday's post I snapped at 320 pretty hard when it wasn't really warranted. Apologies for that.

My beef is this... if you install seats that recline, then design the seating arrangement so that each seated passenger can reasonably take advantage of that feature. What's happening now is effectively a bait-and-switch.

Advertising: "All Our Seats Recline!"
Once on the plane: "Yes sir, all seats recline but you can't use the feature because you didn't pay extra."

An airline CEO lecturing passengers on reclining etiquette? No. The feature is included in the physical seat design, directly inferring the passenger's ability to take advantage of said feature. If those designing the layout don't incorporate this inference into design ethos then passengers have every right to be aggravated. Being lectured about it from the person ultimately in in charge of the entity responsible for the piss-poor seating layout just pours salt on the wound.

As 320 said, airlines track an insane number of metrics. They know the average size of passengers, probably to several decimal places. Their claims of designing to maximum comfort are laughable. If they were honest, they'd admit their goal is making the discomfort just tolerable enough that passengers are willing to suffer through it for the convenience.

Brad
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 11:49:52 AM by Brad Johnson »
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Ben

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2020, 10:45:52 AM »

My beef is this... if you install seats that recline, then design the seating arrangement so that each seated passenger can reasonably take advantage of that feature. What's happening now is effective a bait-and-switch.

I don't disagree with that at all. Either design so that fully reclining doesn't adversely affect others, reduce the recline, or eliminate the recline. If I purchase a seat that reclines, but then according to the Delta CEO am only (because politeness?) allowed to use it if I get permission from the passenger behind me, that's just ridiculous.

It's like being at the "10 items or less" checkout with 10 items, but then having to ask the people behind you for permission to actually checkout with nine or ten items instead of one or two.
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MillCreek

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2020, 11:30:05 AM »
Celebrating the typical APS tangent, my wife and I flew to Las Vegas this last weekend. We flew out of Paine Field in Everett on Alaska flying an Embraer e175 with 76 seats in a dual-class configuration.  We both commented on how the seat pitch and spacing were among the most comfortable we have ever seen in a coach class seating.  I am 5'10" and my knees did not touch the seat in front of me, and we had ample legroom.  It was amazing.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2020, 11:58:57 AM »
Celebrating the typical APS tangent, my wife and I flew to Las Vegas this last weekend. We flew out of Paine Field in Everett on Alaska flying an Embraer e175 with 76 seats in a dual-class configuration.  We both commented on how the seat pitch and spacing were among the most comfortable we have ever seen in a coach class seating.  I am 5'10" and my knees did not touch the seat in front of me, and we had ample legroom.  It was amazing.

Continental runs Embraer 145s on their LBB-IAH run. I love them. The 145 has a single column of seats on the left side of the aisle. Leg room is at a premium but I have a window and I don't have to lean way out into the aisle to accommodate someone next to me. If I manage to score the seat right in front of the emergency exit row, I also don't have to worry about some idiot jacking around with the back of my seat the entire trip. Short of a significant upgrade in seating, it's the closest thing to comfortable I get on an airline.

Brad
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brimic

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2020, 12:10:06 PM »
I don't disagree with that at all. Either design so that fully reclining doesn't adversely affect others, reduce the recline, or eliminate the recline. If I purchase a seat that reclines, but then according to the Delta CEO am only (because politeness?) allowed to use it if I get permission from the passenger behind me, that's just ridiculous.

It's like being at the "10 items or less" checkout with 10 items, but then having to ask the people behind you for permission to actually checkout with nine or ten items instead of one or two.

 [tinfoil] Maybe the airlines make cheap travel as miserable as possible, from the fight over overhead compartments to getting packed in like sardines plus reclining seats just to push people towards a more premium experience next time.  [tinfoil]  If that's the case, they should offer a steep discount for big, fat, sweaty guys like myself, so long as I sit in a middle seat, extra discount if I don't shower 24 hrs before disembarking.  >:D
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Fly320s

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2020, 02:47:35 PM »
[tinfoil] Maybe the airlines make cheap travel as miserable as possible, from the fight over overhead compartments to getting packed in like sardines plus reclining seats just to push people towards a more premium experience next time.  [tinfoil]  If that's the case, they should offer a steep discount for big, fat, sweaty guys like myself, so long as I sit in a middle seat, extra discount if I don't shower 24 hrs before disembarking.  >:D

Yes, and we will keep doing that until your morale improves.  Now shut-up and eat your peanuts you paid $5 for.   =D

FWIW, the new A320NEO that is coming out has redesigned overhead bins that fit more luggage.  The bins are taller and deeper, so roll-aboards can fit standing on edge.
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Fly320s

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Re: Airline Seatback Wars
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 02:57:06 PM »
Yeah, I know. And looking back at yesterday's post I snapped at 320 pretty hard when it wasn't really warranted. Apologies for that.

No harm, no foul.  My apologies to you for being snarky.

I fly in the back of the plane often enough to know how bad the seats sucks, but since I am flying for work most of the time I don't get to complain. 

As for designing the proper layout and seat pitch, the airlines are balancing average customer size with revenue.  Anyone over 6 feet is enough above average that a regular coach seat is going to suck.  That said, we Americans are getting larger in every way.  My company is well aware of leg room, or lack of, and seat width and how it works with above average size people.
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