Author Topic: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID  (Read 14827 times)

Andiron

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2020, 10:31:21 PM »
I'm just wondering how legit this is.  My first reaction is knee jerk,  the powers that be wouldn't be stupid enough to ignore the Kung Flu on a super carrier,  and this guy is just grandstanding to the media.  No idea what the reality is.

As an E4,  I can imagine all kinds of terrible things happening should I have jumped the chain on anything.
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French G.

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2020, 11:59:11 PM »
I put some people publicly on blast on the TR as a newly minted E-5. Yeah, there were repercussions but in the end I was able to air my concerns on the ship's weekly TV show and it helped improve our living conditions. Folk hero.  =D You never do something like that in the military and not expect to run into trouble. Or in a packed room of seniors as a first class when they asked me my opinion of their plan I was to implement. Dumbest effing plan I've ever heard was not what my italian master chief or portuguese warrant officer wanted to hear. Everyone actually stepped away from me instantly. So...after 20 minutes of yelling, we did it my way. Pick your battles though. I think the skipper did okay here.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2020, 12:56:49 PM »
Asked my foster brother, a former US Navy Commander, his thoughts on this article/the whole situation:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/navy-expected-relieve-captain-who-raised-alarm-about-covid-19-n1175351

Foster Brother: "He risked his career for the safety of those under his command, which I think was the morally right call. He was not afraid to speak truth to power, which is needed when those above you are not responsive in a crisis.
Unfortunately the current Navy leadership was indecisive, or did not want to do anything that might be perceived as going against the Commander in Chief."

Me: "That was kind of my thoughts on the carrier/covid debacle. No one ever likes it when you go outside the Chain Of Command for sure but he was dealing with a time sensitive situation and his people, and everyone they came in contact with, didn't have time to not act while those above played politics/optics."
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MillCreek

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2020, 01:04:12 PM »
As a general rule in both the military and corporate settings, if you embarrass your chain of command in public, your career is going to take a hit.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2020, 08:13:33 PM »
And the captain has now tested positive for Covid-19 himself.
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HeroHog

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2020, 09:13:10 PM »
Ouch...
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K Frame

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2020, 01:55:08 PM »
The acting Secretary of the Navy made a PA broadcast address to the remaining sailors on the ship. Essentially it came down to "BAD SAILORS! YOU SHOULN'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE IT MAKES US LOOK BAD!" in response to their cheering him as he departed.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/acting-navy-secretary-ousted-uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-stupid-naive-coronavirus


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MechAg94

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2020, 06:04:50 PM »
The acting Secretary of the Navy made a PA broadcast address to the remaining sailors on the ship. Essentially it came down to "BAD SAILORS! YOU SHOULN'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE IT MAKES US LOOK BAD!" in response to their cheering him as he departed.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/acting-navy-secretary-ousted-uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-stupid-naive-coronavirus



Quote
"If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this," Modly said of Crozier. "The alternative is that he did this on purpose."

“Think about that when you cheer the man of the ship who exposed you to that...I understand you love the guy. It’s good that you love him. But you’re not required to love him,” Modly said, adding the letter penned by Crozier had “sensitive information" regarding the condition of the aircraft carrier.
Should the acting Secretary of the Navy be doing this personally? 
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Fly320s

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2020, 07:27:02 PM »
to speak truth to power,

That phrase is a red flag to me.  To me, it immediatly pegs that person as a liberal loony. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2020, 07:34:56 PM »
That phrase is a red flag to me.  To me, it immediately pegs that person as a liberal loony.  

Quote
And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay; Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words/shibboleth

There are many such. Unfortunately, pro-Americans often adopt them, so they lose their shibbolethy-ness. "pro-choice," "social justice," "woman of color," etc.
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Andiron

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2020, 09:01:34 PM »
That phrase is a red flag to me.  To me, it immediatly pegs that person as a liberal loony. 

Yep.

Automatically makes me assume the speaker is full of *expletive deleted*it.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2020, 09:16:57 PM »
The acting Secretary of the Navy made a PA broadcast address to the remaining sailors on the ship. Essentially it came down to "BAD SAILORS! YOU SHOULN'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE IT MAKES US LOOK BAD!" in response to their cheering him as he departed.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/acting-navy-secretary-ousted-uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-stupid-naive-coronavirus


Dear Deity of choice! THIS is the guy who is calling Captain Crozier stupid?

Quote
"If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this," Modly said of Crozier. "The alternative is that he did this on purpose."

Let's take that apart:

"If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, ..." Double negative. Ignoring that Captain Crozier's thoughts are obviously Captain Crozier's opinions, not Secretary Modly's, so I have no idea why that was interjected ... I believe what Modly meant to say was either, "If he didn't think that this information was going to get out, ..." or ""If he thought that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, ..."

"... then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this." Okay, you gave us 'A.' Now ... what happened to 'B'?


My vote goes to "He did this on purpose," and my guess is that he did it because his superiors were stonewalling and he felt he had to do something to protect his crew. God bless Captain Crozier.
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230RN

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2020, 11:01:03 PM »
Quote
"... then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this." Okay, you gave us 'A.' Now ... what happened to 'B'?

Probably: "... then he was either A, too naïve, or B, too stupid, to be a commanding officer of a ship like this."

A forgivable error, not worth attacking.

See, that's what editors are for.

One thing I would query the writer about in a margin note is the conceptual similarity between "naïve" and "stupid."  Substitute, delete, or stet? Perhaps use "and" instead of "or?"

See, now, you ain't never gonna get no computerized editing system to suggest all that nohow.

At least not yet.  :rofl:

Terry, 230EN
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 11:29:02 PM by 230RN »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 01:30:40 AM »
Probably: "... then he was either A, too naïve, or B, too stupid, to be a commanding officer of a ship like this."

A forgivable error, not worth attacking.

I disagree. When someone presumes to attack an honorable person for doing an honorable deed, one does not have latitude to commit obvious errors. When one is attacking someone for being stupid, one does not have latitude to commit stupid errors.

"Pot, meet kettle."

Quote
See, that's what editors are for.

One thing I would query the writer about in a margin note is the conceptual similarity between "naïve" and "stupid."  Substitute, delete, or stet? Perhaps use "and" instead of "or?"

See, now, you ain't never gonna get no computerized editing system to suggest all that nohow.

At least not yet.  :rofl:


All the more reason to not put one's own stupidity on public display when attacking someone else for [alleged] stupidity.
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MechAg94

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 11:01:25 AM »
I think I am less concerned about specifically what he said than that he said it at all.  Why is he doing a public address to the crew?  Shouldn't that be delegated to the flag officer over the carrier group?  

And if he still chose to do so, keep it focused on the Navy's expectations of behavior and not about his opinions on their former captain.  It seems to me this Naval Secretary is letting his anger show and he should seek to stay above that.  He is bringing the focus on his opinions instead of the expected conduct of Naval officers and sailors.     

I wasn't in the military so maybe my perspective is off.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 11:52:01 AM »

I wasn't in the military so maybe my perspective is off.

I was in the military, and I don't think your perspective is off. I don't even think the admiral should address the crew. If anyone should, IMHO it should be the incoming Captain.

That said, I also think the SecDef acted hastily. He fired the captain apparently without conducting much of any investigation into why the captain felt it was necessary to go outside the chain of command. A guy doesn't get to be captain of a nuclear aircraft carrier by being stupid or naive. Crozier graduated from Annapolis in 1992, so he's a career officer who has been in the Navy for 28 years. He has a master's degree in National Security and Strategic Studies from the Naval war College. He's not a dummy.

The deeper I dig (from the outside -- I have no access to anyone inside the Navy), the more I'm convinced that Crozier tried to work within the chain of command, and finally decided that the chain of command had failed his crew. The SecDef's over the top reaction is just confirmation of this, in my book. It smells to me like the SecDef is protecting the admiral.
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dogmush

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 01:10:05 PM »
I was in the military, and I don't think your perspective is off. I don't even think the admiral should address the crew. If anyone should, IMHO it should be the incoming Captain.

That said, I also think the SecDef acted hastily. He fired the captain apparently without conducting much of any investigation into why the captain felt it was necessary to go outside the chain of command. A guy doesn't get to be captain of a nuclear aircraft carrier by being stupid or naive. Crozier graduated from Annapolis in 1992, so he's a career officer who has been in the Navy for 28 years. He has a master's degree in National Security and Strategic Studies from the Naval war College. He's not a dummy.

The deeper I dig (from the outside -- I have no access to anyone inside the Navy), the more I'm convinced that Crozier tried to work within the chain of command, and finally decided that the chain of command had failed his crew. The SecDef's over the top reaction is just confirmation of this, in my book. It smells to me like the SecDef is protecting the admiral.

I agree that this statement is an ....interesting leadership choice.  I know enough about .mil politics to know there's something going on under the surface here.  This story doesn't add up.

I'd also mention that it was SECNAV that relieved CPT Crozier, and SECNAV that made the statement.  Secretary Esper does not appear (correctly IMHO) to have gotten involved with the hiring/firing of an individual Navy O6. 

I'd really like to know GEN Mattis' take on this though.

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2020, 01:17:25 PM »
SECDEF has now directed the acting SECNAV to apologize for his remarks about Capt. Crozier being stupid or naive.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2020, 01:58:58 PM »
This seems like a giant screw-up all-around. Am I wrong about any of the following? I'm trying to get my head around this.

1. Crozier, apparently, wasn't getting the support he needed from the chain of command. That's very bad.

2. He communicated this in a way that led to the whole world knowing one of our carriers was crippled by a rather serious, communicable, little-understood disease we're not sure how to treat. That's (I think) even worse. Am I wrong?

3. He was cashiered for point 2. Not sure if that was wrong or right.

4. The SecNav berated him publicly, along with those of his former command that cheered for him. That just looks terrible.

5. ???
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makattak

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2020, 02:06:10 PM »
This seems like a giant screw-up all-around. Am I wrong about any of the following? I'm trying to get my head around this.

1. Crozier, apparently, wasn't getting the support he needed from the chain of command. That's very bad.

2. He communicated this in a way that led to the whole world knowing one of our carriers was crippled by a rather serious, communicable, little-understood disease we're not sure how to treat. That's (I think) even worse. Am I wrong?

3. He was cashiered for point 2. Not sure if that was wrong or right.

4. The SecNav berated him publicly, along with those of his former command that cheered for him. That just looks terrible.

5. ???

Seems you have the same summary I have taken from this.

I'm of the firm stance that this captain deserves to have been fired AND court-martialed.

I'm glad he cares about his crew. I'm furious that he put the world on notice that our Pacific fleet is now unready.

But, hey. What's to worry? What country would ever think they could attack really quickly, gain their objective and then just hold it once the US finally got up to speed, forcing the US to just accept that as the new order. I mean, what's the chances of that happening?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2020, 02:12:30 PM »

I'm glad he cares about his crew. I'm furious that he put the world on notice that our Pacific fleet is now unready.



I don't know that the whole fleet's unready, but it sure doesn't help that the news got spread around.

On the other hand, I'm sure it wasn't a secret that the carrier was having a corona-virus issue. But it sure makes our navy look weak, that we are having a fight over it.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2020, 02:45:53 PM »

I'd also mention that it was SECNAV that relieved CPT Crozier, and SECNAV that made the statement.  Secretary Esper does not appear (correctly IMHO) to have gotten involved with the hiring/firing of an individual Navy O6. 
 

My bad. Yes, you are correct -- SecNav, not SecDef.
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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2020, 02:52:43 PM »
I'd love to know who's decision it was to hit that port of call, though. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2020, 02:54:41 PM »

I'm of the firm stance that this captain deserves to have been fired AND court-martialed.

I'm glad he cares about his crew. I'm furious that he put the world on notice that our Pacific fleet is now unready.


Starting from the same facts, I arrive at a very different conclusion.

Looking at Crozier's record (what we as civilians can see of it), this action seems out of character. That should lead one to ask "Why did he do that?" It does not appear that the SecNav asked "Why?" -- he just fired the guy. Yes, it's bad that the world was put on notice that one of our carriers is down. But ... why was it necessary to send that letter via an open, unclassified channel? I'm not so sure it's Crozier who should be court-martialed. Maybe it's Crozier's direct superior, or maybe his superior, who should be court-martialed.
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DittoHead

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Re: Carrier captain relieved of command over COVID
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2020, 03:09:21 PM »
This guy was trying to avoid having a mess like this on his hands. He ended up with a different mess.

“I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive,” Modly told me in a telephone call from Hawaii at about 1 a.m. Sunday, Washington time. He continued: “If I were president, and I saw a commanding officer of a ship exercising such poor judgment, I would be asking why the leadership of the Navy wasn’t taking action itself."

Modly explained that his predecessor, Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, “lost his job because the Navy Department got crossways with the president” in the Gallagher case. “I didn’t want that to happen again.” The acting secretary reiterated the point later in the conversation: “I put myself in the president’s shoes. I considered how the president felt like he needed to get involved in Navy decisions [in the Gallagher case and the Spencer firing]. I didn’t want that to happen again.”
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