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Author Topic: Minneapolis police in the news again  (Read 28768 times)
zxcvbob
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« on: May 26, 2020, 04:35:44 PM »

for murdering a black man during an arrest.  I'm sure you've heard about it.  I just watched the video.  I don't think race had much to do with it.  I assume the victim, George Floyd,  was resisting arrest and generally being a dick before the video starts.  But he was not resisting (and was reportedly handcuffed) for the 4 minutes the cop calmly kneeled on his neck to make sure he was good and dead.

The FBI is investigating; the State of Minnesota should bow out and let them have the first bite of this one -- the feds have the death penalty and MN doesn't.  And that's exactly what the state prosecutor should say in the press release.
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Jim147
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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2020, 05:23:11 PM »

I think they already fired four cops.
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zxcvbob
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2020, 05:27:40 PM »

I think they already fired four cops.

Yes.  That's a lot faster than normal.  But without a criminal prosecution, they'll just end up hired by another smaller police dept or SO.  Or Minneapolis possibly forced by the union to rehire them with back-pay.
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WLJ
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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2020, 05:33:33 PM »

I don't think race had much to do with it.

90% of the MSM/dems and all of the race baiters are going to spend the next 6 months or more reminding you of the "fact" that race was/is the only issue.
Surprised I haven't seen something blaming Orange Man yet but I'm fairly certain somewhere someone is working on it.

I will say this, it doesn't look good for the cops involved I just wish the knee jerk "it's race!" reaction wasn't so automatic.

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RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2020, 06:09:30 PM »

Wel, if you look at it from the perspective of the majority of the police it is a "race" issue. The police race and the subject race.
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2020, 02:50:04 AM »

I wonder how long communities are going to watch this kind of thing and video from the sidelines?
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230RN
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 03:01:08 AM »

That was pretty rough.  Seemed like downright sadism.
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makattak
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2020, 04:04:34 AM »

I watched the video. The cop sat with his knee on the guys neck for 10 minutes. From other pictures, there were also TWO OTHER POLICE (with the other officer standing by making up the 4 that got fired) sitting on the lower parts of the murder victim.

There is absolutely no circumstances where the murderer oh, right, police officer, who sat on his neck needed to be there with two other cops on an already handcuffed victim. He especially didn't need to be there for 10 minutes.
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2020, 04:06:04 AM »

90% of the MSM/dems and all of the race baiters are going to spend the next 6 months or more reminding you of the "fact" that race was/is the only issue.
Surprised I haven't seen something blaming Orange Man yet but I'm fairly certain somewhere someone is working on it.

I will say this, it doesn't look good for the cops involved I just wish the knee jerk "it's race!" reaction wasn't so automatic.



While it looks like the right course of action is being taken here, every time I see one of these incidents in the news, I have to wonder how many times it happens involving other races, yet never making it in the news.
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makattak
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2020, 04:09:48 AM »

While it looks like the right course of action is being taken here, every time I see one of these incidents in the news, I have to wonder how many times it happens involving other races, yet never making it in the news.

I'm fairly certain it's not race. The police will overreact to any race of person they feel "threatened" by. I'm reminded of the veteran murdered in Nevada where the police kept screaming conflicting orders at him until they decided to shoot him.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2020, 05:12:03 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxCgofCRefY
Timcast goes on at length about it.  He claims he was arrested once and the officer pinned his head down with his knee.

Which leads to me to ask how widespread this sort of tactic is?  I can sort of see a knee in the back when trying to cuff the guy.   Putting your weight down on someone's neck is probably going to injure them every time.
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2020, 05:21:37 AM »

Prediction: We will discover these officers (especially the one who murdered the guy) have had serious complaints against them previously.
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zxcvbob
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2020, 05:27:00 AM »

I wonder how long communities are going to watch this kind of thing and video from the sidelines?

I've thought a lot about that.  Anyone witnessing that would have been legally and morally justified in killing that cop.  But to what end?  You can't kill all 4 of them; his buddies will kill you.  And they victim was likely already mortally wounded.  If you somehow miraculously survive the encounter, you won't survive the murder trial -- I said you'd be legally justified, but the criminal justice system won't see it that way because you killed one of theirs.
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2020, 05:35:15 AM »

I've watched some Live PD lately. They obviously won't be showing any recordings that make cops look racist, but it does seem really obvious they want all their failure-to-signal and no-license-tag-light stops to turn into drug arrests.
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dogmush
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2020, 07:48:24 AM »

I've thought a lot about that.  Anyone witnessing that would have been legally and morally justified in killing that cop.  But to what end?  You can't kill all 4 of them; his buddies will kill you.  And they victim was likely already mortally wounded.  If you somehow miraculously survive the encounter, you won't survive the murder trial -- I said you'd be legally justified, but the criminal justice system won't see it that way because you killed one of theirs.

If all four of them standing there get shot, and there's no one there to arrest when backup shows up?  Some of these city folks have got to be doing that math.
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2020, 07:59:46 AM »

The police are really pushing it. Not only this stuff but the salon and such arrests.

They are pissing everybody off.
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zxcvbob
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2020, 10:26:39 AM »

If all four of them standing there get shot, and there's no one there to arrest when backup shows up?  Some of these city folks have got to be doing that math.

One person probably can't do it alone.  It will take a somewhat coordinated attack -- I predict those will start happening, but they'll be against some random cops in a donut shop after the fact, not renegade cops caught killing someone for sport.  I think it's happened before.

Maybe we ought to be recruiting urban blacks for IDPA pistol leagues...  [rest of the paragraph deleted, use your imagination]
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2020, 12:40:32 PM »

I've thought a lot about that.  Anyone witnessing that would have been legally and morally justified in killing that cop.  But to what end?  You can't kill all 4 of them; his buddies will kill you.  And they victim was likely already mortally wounded.  If you somehow miraculously survive the encounter, you won't survive the murder trial -- I said you'd be legally justified, but the criminal justice system won't see it that way because you killed one of theirs.

One cop doing the murder, two holding down the victim, and another making sure no one tries to save the victim.

All four would have been a good shoot.  Preferably with intermediate rifle caliber because soft armor.
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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2020, 12:56:55 PM »

Gents, you're walking some thin ice here between speculation about legalities and advocation of killing cops by discussing means and tactics.  This thread is going to be short lived.

edited for clarity
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zxcvbob
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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2020, 01:39:42 PM »

What I'm afraid is going to happen is random cops are going to get ambushed and killed because of this. 

They've released the names of the 4 cops involved today.  I think the cop with the knee has been arrested.  Also additional video from another angle that shows they lied about the "reisisting" part.
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JN01
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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2020, 02:17:09 PM »

I don’t think the knee on the neck is the cause of death.  If the cop was putting a lot of weight on the face down victims back, it could have killed him by positional asphyxia.  Anyone routinely involved in restraining individuals (LE, Corrections, Mental Health) should be aware of that potential danger.  If the prosecution can show the cop received documented training on positional asphyxia, it will be harder to defend his actions.
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AmbulanceDriver
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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2020, 02:18:17 PM »

I think what would turn this around right quick is if cops lose their blanket immunity.   Instead of only suing the department, sue the cops *individually*.   Instead of police getting deferential treatment from the courts, they face the exact same criminal repercussions as if a non-LEO did it.  I don't know the best means for oversight, whether that be a combined LE and non-LE board that reviews these, judicial review, or what. But the only way to have good oversight on something like this is if you have good people on such boards, and that's a hard task.

But ultimately, there has to be a better way of sorting this out where good shoots/use of force would still be justifiable, but bad uses of force would be a lot less protected.  
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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2020, 03:00:30 PM »

I don’t think the knee on the neck is the cause of death.  If the cop was putting a lot of weight on the face down victims back, it could have killed him by positional asphyxia.  Anyone routinely involved in restraining individuals (LE, Corrections, Mental Health) should be aware of that potential danger.  If the prosecution can show the cop received documented training on positional asphyxia, it will be harder to defend his actions.
I have had a knee in my neck in a very similar position. Held for a few minutes I could easily see it leading to death.  That is not the kind of maneuver you employ long term and the cop should have learned that in his defensive tactics class.

That said ...
1. I really don’t think the cop was intentionally trying to kill this guy despite the commentary here and among the rioters claiming he was.  Looks to me like he was criminally careless, and appears to be deserving of prosecution, but I don’t think he set out to murder his victim.
2. A crowd repeatedly berating and telling the cops what to do (even if, as in this case, the crowd were completely right) and berating them is going to tend to make those cops dig in. I don’t know that the cops would have been more attentive to their victim had they not had a crowd berating them, but it definitely didn’t help.  I’m not sure how an outsider could intervene in this kind of scenario without making things worse.  In some neighborhoods surrounding police trying to conduct an arrest and yelling at them is kind of a sport, but sometimes it is justified.
3. Overreacting when scared is not limited to police by any stretch.

AmbulanceDriver,
How would that solution change this kind of situation?  The cops are not protected by immunity in this case and all involved have been fired and at least one appears to be facing prosecution.  Have to watch the case, of course, but at this stage I don’t see any indication that this is being covered up or kid gloved.

Also, civilian oversight boards are already a thing.  Members tend to be good looking, sensible types, above average in every respect.  Wink
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MechAg94
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2020, 03:31:08 PM »

I think what would turn this around right quick is if cops lose their blanket immunity.   Instead of only suing the department, sue the cops *individually*.   Instead of police getting deferential treatment from the courts, they face the exact same criminal repercussions as if a non-LEO did it.  I don't know the best means for oversight, whether that be a combined LE and non-LE board that reviews these, judicial review, or what. But the only way to have good oversight on something like this is if you have good people on such boards, and that's a hard task.

But ultimately, there has to be a better way of sorting this out where good shoots/use of force would still be justifiable, but bad uses of force would be a lot less protected.  

Even if there was no immunity, the prosecutors and juries could still be reluctant to convict.  Of course, they could also be looking to convict.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2020, 03:41:31 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lirHz93qJ50
Looking at this, it is hard to tell if he really can't breathe or not especially since he keeps talking at least at first.  He shifts his shoulders a few times and I can't tell what is going on the other side of the car.  The officer with his knee on him has one knee on his neck and one further down.  I can't tell how his weight is distributed, but he is putting his weight down on the guy.  In this video, it looks like other officers are doing something with his hands or legs.  Can't tell if they are trying to restrain him or something else.

Edit:  Of course, he was unconscious when they finally put him in the car so there was more happening than this first video showed. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWzkgKPZWcw
CBS report with other snippets of video.  You can see a clip showing Floyd limp as they start to pick him up.  It isn't clear from the other angles they show briefly if the other two officers are doing anything that needed him to remain pinned on the ground. 

I can't tell what happened exactly, but the guy was living when they pinned him down and apparently dead when they picked him up.  Think the coroner will find something new?
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