Minneapolis police in the news again

[Ron]

Bodycam footage leaked.

https://www.unz.com/isteve/floyd-bodycam-footage-finally-leaked/

He was obviously high and resisting arrest. I didn't watch all the way to the end.

The left needs better heroes.

[RoadKingLarry]

The heroes and the martyrs of the left seem to all have a common theme.

Martin- just another junior thug who was shot while beating his intended victim's head into the pavement

Brown - another thug with attitude issues, if he'd been walking on the sidewalk instead of being a doosh in the middle of the road the cop probably would have driven on by...  Of course the strong arm robbery he committed just a few minutes prior might have gotten the cops attention but when you try to take a cops gun all bets are off.

Floyd - multiple convictions for drug offenses and violent crimes, likely would still be alive today if he hadn't been caught passing phony $20 bills

Of course there are all the classic heroes as well, Marx, Stalin, Mao, Geuvara, Castro and others.

[MechAg94]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8576371/amp/Police-bodycam-footage-shows-moment-moment-arrest-George-Floyd-time.html?__twitter_impression=true

I was going to post this but it is mostly still video captures.  Ron is ahead with a better link.   

[Andiron]

Watch the video.

I generally think the cops are out of line but they were consummate professionals with that retard.  Totally kills the racism narrative.

[zxcvbob]

I finally watched it.  I agree, the left has once again done a poor job of picking a hero.  St Floyd worked himself up into hysteria, probably from drugs, and contributed to his own demise.  I think some of the cops (the rookies) will probably get off now; and maybe they should. 

Officer Chauvin is still a murderer; I don't know what his motive was, but he deliberately killed a detainee who was handcuffed and under control.  We know it was deliberate because he kept Floyd pinned for several minutes after he was non-responsive, IMHO to make sure he was dead. 

"Hangin's too good for him.  Burnin's too good for him..."

[just Warren]

Does this article maybe shift your view?

Looks like he was doing what he was trained to do.

And it may have been, given the options available, the most compassionate way to deal with a person in Floyd's condition.

[zxcvbob]

Does this article maybe shift your view?

Looks like he was doing what he was trained to do.

And it may have been, given the options available, the most compassionate way to deal with a person in Floyd's condition.

Good article.  It might change my mind a little.  But IIRC, Chauvin kept Floyd pinned for about 3 minutes after the other officers said they could not detect a pulse.

[Hawkmoon]

Good article.  It might change my mind a little.  But IIRC, Chauvin kept Floyd pinned for about 3 minutes after the other officers said they could not detect a pulse.

According to the article, the policy is to restrain until paramedics arrive ...

[zxcvbob]

According to the article, the policy is to restrain until paramedics arrive ...

If that's true, then it doesn't matter whether he murdered Floyd or not, the case will get thrown out for qualified immunity.  This could get interesting.

[dogmush]

Does this article maybe shift your view?

Looks like he was doing what he was trained to do.

And it may have been, given the options available, the most compassionate way to deal with a person in Floyd's condition.

Since one of my issues all along has been police procedures are too violent and dangerous to the folks they are arresting, the fact that policy may have allowed killing Mr. Floyd doesn't really change that, no.

Honestly, the fact that Mr. Floyd was high, a criminal, and acting weird doesn't really change my view of the minutes that he was restrained, not resisting, and still being knelt on.  I never thought that he was a saint, and, indeed, we shouldn't have to be saints to not get killed by our law enforcement officers.  Murder vs. manslaughter is going to be a long drawn out conversation between lawyers looking for nuances in commas, but I still believe that Officer Chauvin is culpable for the death, and criminally so.

At the risk of nudging the thread towards Godwin, we established long ago that "I was just following orders" is not sufficient to shield you from criminal prosecution for your misdeeds, and every individual has a responsibility to act in a legal manner, regardless of what their bosses say.  As a soldier, I get repeated, and as I progress up the ranks very nuanced, training reminding me of my responsibility to ensure any orders I follow are legal, and what the laws of war say.  If MPD's policy was "kneel on the guy till the paramedics get there", then I would argue that Officer Chauvin was morally and legally obligated to break that policy before he killed someone, and the other officers were similarly obligated to point out that Officer Chauvin was crossing a line and keep him from killing someone in the name of following policy.

[Ron]

Yea, not sure I can go along with murder but killing someone inadvertently just because you are following orders is at the minimum manslaughter.

I have zero law enforcement, legal or military background and am just trying to suss out the commonsense, just position on the whole affair.

Those delegated authority do have to be held accountable or else they eventually just become your rulers. 

[BlueStarLizzard]

I'm suspicious that Floyd was dying before the police even got there and that he would have died regardless of how he was treated. I also saw nothing in the body cam footage that made me think excessive force.

This actually makes me want to say "Increase funding" and use it on more medical first responder training, because honestly, that's what I think happened. They knew something was wrong with him. They just couldn't identify it.

[just Warren]

Since one of my issues all along has been police procedures are too violent and dangerous to the folks they are arresting, the fact that policy may have allowed killing Mr. Floyd doesn't really change that, no.

Honestly, the fact that Mr. Floyd was high, a criminal, and acting weird doesn't really change my view of the minutes that he was restrained, not resisting, and still being knelt on.  I never thought that he was a saint, and, indeed, we shouldn't have to be saints to not get killed by our law enforcement officers.  Murder vs. manslaughter is going to be a long drawn out conversation between lawyers looking for nuances in commas, but I still believe that Officer Chauvin is culpable for the death, and criminally so.

At the risk of nudging the thread towards Godwin, we established long ago that "I was just following orders" is not sufficient to shield you from criminal prosecution for your misdeeds, and every individual has a responsibility to act in a legal manner, regardless of what their bosses say.  As a soldier, I get repeated, and as I progress up the ranks very nuanced, training reminding me of my responsibility to ensure any orders I follow are legal, and what the laws of war say.  If MPD's policy was "kneel on the guy till the paramedics get there", then I would argue that Officer Chauvin was morally and legally obligated to break that policy before he killed someone, and the other officers were similarly obligated to point out that Officer Chauvin was crossing a line and keep him from killing someone in the name of following policy.

But what if the restraint was the best possible option? That is, what if this type of restraint leads to better outcomes than any other choice the police could have made here?

They couldn't let him drive away, they didn't shoot him, they didn't tase him, they did get hands on with him in the back of squad but then could they just let him thrash around in there? I don't know the answer to that.

Maybe what they did was in Floyd's best interests. It just didn't work out this time.

And as the article stated, the kneeling may not have had any bearing on the death of Floyd. People have died under restraint and they have died while not under restraint.

It was just bad luck for Floyd and Chauvin. 

[dogmush]

Just.....No.

Minutes kneeling on someone's neck, after they are in handcuffs isn't the best possible option. Depending on which autopsy you like, either he asphyxiated due to being kneeled on, or his heart stopped due to complications from being kneeled on.

Yes, he didn't help his case by being on drugs, sketchy, and probably with underlying medical issues, but the police still need to be able to arrest high, sketchy, not medically perfect people without killing them.  I've watched the videos.  I'm not condemning the cops for anything they did, except kneeling on the guys neck for minutes after he was cuffed and had stopped struggling.  Sadly, that directly contributed to his death.  So they are culpable for that action.  This shouldn't be complicated.  You don't get to contribute materially to the homicide* of someone in your custody and just say "oops, he started it."  If anything, once he was in cuffs they had a greater responsibility to ensure his safety, because they had removed some of his ability to do it himself.  They had numerous options to deescalate once he was in cuffs, and they did nothing at all except maintain the max pressure it took to get him in cuffs.


*BOTH autopsies ruled Mr. Floyd's death a homicide, so I feel it's fair to call it such.

[just Warren]

Do we know the kneeling was a cause of death?

There's a chance that the COD was Floyd's condition. That alone should be reasonable doubt.

What I'd like to see is some statistics on this restraint method. How many times has it been used versus how many people have died under it.

Because if the number of deaths is a very small percentage than that would point to Floyd's death being bad luck rather than the results of depraved actions by the officers.

That's because the officers would have been trained in a technique that has been shown to work the vast majority of the time and so why shouldn't they use it in this instance? Are they expected to come up with a different method on-the-fly?

And what if they didn't restrain him and he thrashed around such that he banged his head and that looked like it resulted in his death. The officers would still be blamed for that outcome. Maybe not charged with murder, but still blamed.

And maybe that would have been for the best because maybe we wouldn't have gotten these riots as a result.

[RoadKingLarry]

Just.....No.

Minutes kneeling on someone's neck, after they are in handcuffs isn't the best possible option. Depending on which autopsy you like, either he asphyxiated due to being kneeled on, or his heart stopped due to complications from being kneeled on.

Yes, he didn't help his case by being on drugs, sketchy, and probably with underlying medical issues, but the police still need to be able to arrest high, sketchy, not medically perfect people without killing them.  I've watched the videos.  I'm not condemning the cops for anything they did, except kneeling on the guys neck for minutes after he was cuffed and had stopped struggling.  Sadly, that directly contributed to his death.  So they are culpable for that action.  This shouldn't be complicated.  You don't get to contribute materially to the homicide* of someone in your custody and just say "oops, he started it."  If anything, once he was in cuffs they had a greater responsibility to ensure his safety, because they had removed some of his ability to do it himself.  They had numerous options to deescalate once he was in cuffs, and they did nothing at all except maintain the max pressure it took to get him in cuffs.


*BOTH autopsies ruled Mr. Floyd's death a homicide, so I feel it's fair to call it such.

I tend to agree with you but I don't know what the answer is.
He was apparently stoned out of his gourd. He WAS resisting though not extremely violently. They had him cuffed, could they have just let him flop around on the ground like a beached fish till he wore himself out and possibly fatally injured himself in the process?

I do not for a second believe Floyd deserved to die in this incident. (The incident where he held a gun to the belly of a pregnant woman is a whole 'nuther story)
He had a long criminal record that included numerous violent crimes.
He had recently ingested excessive quantities of dangerous, mind altering drugs.
He was apprehended for passing bogus $20 bills and freaked out and resisted.
At some point the majority of blame for what happened to him has to rest squarely on his own shoulders.

[dogmush]

Do we know the kneeling was a cause of death?

There were two independent autopsies.

Hennepin County ME said:

cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

The private ME said:

mechanical asphyxiation from sustained pressure

I personally feel safe assuming that whatever else he had in his system, absent the knee on his neck, he would have survived at least that day.

[zxcvbob]

Perhaps this will be the straw that breaks the back of qualified immunity.  "Just following orders" wasn't good enough for the Nazis, and it's not good enough for our military, but it's more than enough for the police and that needs to change.

Have I done the "Hangin's too good for him" thing yet?  I still believe that, but I also now think he'll walk, and might even be reinstated.  Maybe rioters will burn down city hall, or the capitol building :)

[just Warren]

There were two independent autopsies.

Hennepin County ME said:

The private ME said:

I personally feel safe assuming that whatever else he had in his system, absent the knee on his neck, he would have survived at least that day.

As the article explained, the private M.E. has credibility issues and I'm sure the defense will have their own M.E. report that refutes the kneeling hypothesis. So, for the jury those might cancel.

[just Warren]

https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings-medical-examiner-thought-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-system

In one memorandum filed May 26 after a virtual meeting with Baker, the Attorney’s Office said Baker concluded, “The autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.” 

[WLJ]

Now if they comment suicide RIOT!

    Police say a suspect in a Wednesday afternoon homicide fatally shot himself in downtown Minneapolis as officers closed in.

    The suspect, who was wanted in the slaying of a man in a downtown parking garage, was on foot on Nicollet Mall between 8th and 9th street at 6 p.m. when police pulled up and he shot himself in the head, according to spokesman John Elder.

    “There is no question that this was a suicide and we will be releasing the video to answer any question of that,” Elder said. Several bystanders were present at the time of the shooting, he said.

    …

    News of the death drew a large crowd of people. Tensions were rising, including the smashing of windows downtown. Metro Transit was ending light-rail service at U.S. Bank Stadium.

Looting breaks out in Minneapolis after black homicide suspect shoots himself as police approach
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/08/26/looting-breaks-out-in-minneapolis-after-black-homicide-suspect-shoots-himself-as-police-approach/

[Ben]

Seems like this should be worth getting shot for. That steel plate sounded heavy. The helmet may have saved the cop's life. But hey, Captain America!

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2020/08/28/captain-america-has-been-blowing-up-twitter-thanks-to-this-act-of-evil-by-a-minneapolis-rioter-video/

[WLJ]

Seems like this should be worth getting shot for. That steel plate sounded heavy. The helmet may have saved the cop's life. But hey, Captain America!

https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2020/08/28/captain-america-has-been-blowing-up-twitter-thanks-to-this-act-of-evil-by-a-minneapolis-rioter-video/

Actually I'm amazed at how well he aimed that

[MechAg94]

Do we know the kneeling was a cause of death?

There's a chance that the COD was Floyd's condition. That alone should be reasonable doubt.

What I'd like to see is some statistics on this restraint method. How many times has it been used versus how many people have died under it.

Because if the number of deaths is a very small percentage than that would point to Floyd's death being bad luck rather than the results of depraved actions by the officers.

That's because the officers would have been trained in a technique that has been shown to work the vast majority of the time and so why shouldn't they use it in this instance? Are they expected to come up with a different method on-the-fly?

And what if they didn't restrain him and he thrashed around such that he banged his head and that looked like it resulted in his death. The officers would still be blamed for that outcome. Maybe not charged with murder, but still blamed.

And maybe that would have been for the best because maybe we wouldn't have gotten these riots as a result.

You mention reasonable doubt.  I think there is plenty of that so far to rule out murder or manslaughter as a verdict.  Doesn't mean guilty verdict won't happen, but think it is there.  You might make a case for depraved indifference which I heard was component of manslaughter, but I don't know if the depraved part fits with the whole incident. 

[MechAg94]

https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1301267178470232065
Saw this today.