Author Topic: Looks like Atlanta is next  (Read 3457 times)

bedlamite

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« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 08:01:06 AM by bedlamite »
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dogmush

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 08:21:53 AM »
Hold on ....I have a speech from a police chief for this......

[Digs through notes]

Ahem

Quote
The investigation is still ongoing, and while we can't comment on ongoing investigations I urge all citizens cops in Atlanta to wait until the answers are clear and to give the justice system a chance. The alleged murderer can be assured a fair trial here in the fine city of Atlanta.


Right?  Because the system works.  If you are innocent,  just comply with the cops and system and the truth will come out in court, right?

MechAg94

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:07:02 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_kQjIxEUKw
Saw this before I saw this thread. 

I have seen a few different comments from cops that they are trained to treat someone taking their taser as a deadly threat.  If that is true, I can see a lot of officers being upset that the DA appears to be playing to the mob.  Pretty much means they will not be able to do their job without the threat of prosecution.


Part of me wants to say:  "Welcome to the club!".  That is what happens to us when we try to defend ourselves.  But I don't know how police can function the same way with that sort of legal threat. 
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Pb

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 10:18:38 AM »
Who in their right mind would want to be a police officer now? 

castle key

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 10:24:05 AM »

"I have seen a few different comments from cops that they are trained to treat someone taking their taser as a deadly threat.  If that is true, I can see a lot of officers being upset that the DA appears to be playing to the mob.  Pretty much means they will not be able to do their job without the threat of prosecution."


A conducted energy device, Taser, is NOT a deadly weapon.

The issue is that its use against a police officer creates a deadly weapon situation.

Every police officer on every call or public contact has an armed encounter; the officer brings the gun. Gun retention is paramount. A Taser used against the officer easily allows the officer to be disarmed.

I am quite thankful that I am retired from police work. I wouldn't go back into that job.
Vigilate hoc, tenendum per ebrietatem.

WLJ

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2020, 10:25:55 AM »
Burning of Atlanta ][ No Gen Sherman needed this time*.


*Although Gen Sherman and his troops probably had nothing to do it with the first time. It is though the confederate burning of certain buildings got out of hand
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dogmush

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 10:50:06 AM »
"I have seen a few different comments from cops that they are trained to treat someone taking their taser as a deadly threat.  If that is true, I can see a lot of officers being upset that the DA appears to be playing to the mob.  Pretty much means they will not be able to do their job without the threat of prosecution."


A conducted energy device, Taser, is NOT a deadly weapon.

The issue is that its use against a police officer creates a deadly weapon situation.

Every police officer on every call or public contact has an armed encounter; the officer brings the gun. Gun retention is paramount. A Taser used against the officer easily allows the officer to be disarmed.

I am quite thankful that I am retired from police work. I wouldn't go back into that job.


In this particular case, the Taser had been fired, and [at least one of] the darts had missed the officer.  So you had a drunk guy with , at best, a contact stun gun* against two officers, one of which still had a taser, both of which had chemical sprays and both of which were wearing armor that is decent at mitigating contact electrical stuns. So you have a guy who's identity and address you know so you can find him again, who's car you have, who had already used the one ranged shot he had and was running away, and the officer shot him in the back at 15ish feet.

The DA is probably being a little premature, and may be overreaching with the charges, but it will be very hard to convince me that this was a legitimate use of deadly force.  Could it have turned into a weapons retention issue?  Sure, the drunk guy could be Chuck Norris, but in reality I don't believe they were far enough up the threat spectrum to go for deadly force justifiably.




*some info on Tasers in contact mode:
The “drive-stun” mode is generally considered to be a “pain-compliance” technique, thus a lesser quantum of force than using the probes. Law enforcement uses a variety of pain-compliance techniques on resisting or assaulting subjects who might stop their resistance or attack if they feel pain. However, some subjects in combative situations apparently do not feel pain, so pain-compliance techniques may not work. Officers generally should not expect NMI to result from a drive-stun. The contact points on the TASER X26 ECW are only 1.6” apart, not enough to achieve the effects of a good probe spread. In addition, in a dynamic altercation it is very difficult for an officer to apply and maintain the application of a drive-stun to a person who is resisting or who is reacting to the pain-compliance technique. The drive-stun contact points typically touch the body for part of the time, but are out of contact with the body for part of the time during the dynamic struggle to subdue the subject.

MechAg94

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2020, 11:22:05 AM »
In this particular case, the Taser had been fired, and [at least one of] the darts had missed the officer.  So you had a drunk guy with , at best, a contact stun gun* against two officers, one of which still had a taser, both of which had chemical sprays and both of which were wearing armor that is decent at mitigating contact electrical stuns. So you have a guy who's identity and address you know so you can find him again, who's car you have, who had already used the one ranged shot he had and was running away, and the officer shot him in the back at 15ish feet.

The DA is probably being a little premature, and may be overreaching with the charges, but it will be very hard to convince me that this was a legitimate use of deadly force.  Could it have turned into a weapons retention issue?  Sure, the drunk guy could be Chuck Norris, but in reality I don't believe they were far enough up the threat spectrum to go for deadly force justifiably.




*some info on Tasers in contact mode:
I saw it pointed out that it after he turned around to point the taser back at the one officer that he was shot.  One of the videos claimed to hear the discharge of it firing.  I don't think what happened comes anywhere close to the murder charges (among other charges) the local DA hung on them.  It appears a lot of the local officers agree.  We will see how this shakes out. 
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 11:53:03 AM »

A conducted energy device, Taser, is NOT a deadly weapon.

The issue is that its use against a police officer creates a deadly weapon situation.

According to at least one DA, Tasers are considered deadly weapons under Georgia law:

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/06/17/da-who-just-charged-cop-with-felony-murder-in-rayshard-brooks-case-recently-explained-a-taser-is-considered-a-deadly-weapon/

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1273378926744739842

Obviously this will work in the defendant's favor.

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zxcvbob

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 12:03:25 PM »
A few days (maybe a week?) the news was making a big deal about the coroner's report calling it a homicide.  Of course it was a homicide; that has no bearing on whether or not it may have been justified.

The DA may be trying to have it both ways; pandering to the mob with a quick murder indictment, pandering to the cops (although they might not realize it yet) by skipping the grand jury, overcharging, and then under-prosecuting.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 12:08:30 PM »
A few days (maybe a week?) the news was making a big deal about the coroner's report calling it a homicide.  Of course it was a homicide; that has no bearing on whether or not it may have been justified.


The problem is that too many decades of TV "homicide" detective shows have taught the populace that "homicide" = "murder." It doesn't ... but you'll have a hard time explaining that to the unwashed (and even most of the washed) masses.
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230RN

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 06:30:11 PM »
"I have seen a few different comments from cops that they are trained to treat someone taking their taser as a deadly threat.  If that is true, I can see a lot of officers being upset that the DA appears to be playing to the mob.  Pretty much means they will not be able to do their job without the threat of prosecution."

...

Blackmail and extortion works.

Legal immunity, qualified or not, does not shield an official from mob justice.

That's what scares me.

bedlamite

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Ben

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2020, 12:08:30 PM »
It appears the rioter that burned down the Wendy's is Brook's girlfriend. Any bets that she gets to skate on the charges, as in community service or similar?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/burning-wendys-rayshard-brooks-girlfriend
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Pb

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2020, 03:58:22 PM »
It appears the rioter that burned down the Wendy's is Brook's girlfriend. Any bets that she gets to skate on the charges, as in community service or similar?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/burning-wendys-rayshard-brooks-girlfriend

No one would be against that.

Angel Eyes

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2020, 04:11:59 PM »

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makattak

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 04:23:03 PM »
In this particular case, the Taser had been fired, and [at least one of] the darts had missed the officer.  So you had a drunk guy with , at best, a contact stun gun*[1] against two[2] officers, one of which still had a taser[3], both of which had chemical sprays and both of which were wearing armor that is decent at mitigating contact electrical stuns. So you have a guy who's identity and address you know so you can find him again, who's car you have, who had already used the one ranged shot he had and was running away, and the officer shot him in the back at 15ish feet.

The DA is probably being a little premature, and may be overreaching with the charges, but it will be very hard to convince me that this was a legitimate use of deadly force.  Could it have turned into a weapons retention issue?  Sure, the drunk guy could be Chuck Norris, but in reality I don't believe they were far enough up the threat spectrum to go for deadly force justifiably.

*some info on Tasers in contact mode:

[1] Some taser have two shots before reverting to contact mode, so the deceased MAY have had another shot
[2] While we, the after action guys watching on video, know there were 2 cops, the police officer who fired had no idea as to the state of the other officer that he had left on the ground.
[3] He did have the taser, which he then holstered because in "dueling tasers" you have a much greater chance of losing and then losing your gun and possibly your life.

Every police officer I've seen says they are trained that if a perp attacks with a taser, you respond with a firearm. And that is with good reason.

Your scenarios are offered with the benefit of hindsight and third person view. They do not reflect the data that the police officer making the decision had.
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WLJ

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cordex

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2020, 05:21:34 PM »
So you have a guy who's identity and address you know so you can find him again, who's car you have, who had already used the one ranged shot he had and was running away, and the officer shot him in the back at 15ish feet.
While I'm not quite sold on the "All he was doing was driving drunk, and resisting arrest, and fighting the cops, and taking their weapons, and running away, and shooting a taser at them!  Obviously they should just let him go on his merry way and arrest him when it's a more convenient time for him!" argument, I do think you're going to see more and more of exactly that in coming years.  Whether or not it ends up being a positive thing for society remains to be seen, but I think we're all going to get what you're asking for good and hard as cops and departments start to do the math and decide that it's better to let combative suspects go versus facing the risk associated with apprehending them.

I wish the cops had been able to arrest Brooks without killing him, but then again I also wish he hadn't decided to shoot a taser at them, or fight them, or drive drunk in the first place.  I'm willing to have my mind changed if more evidence comes to light, but as far as I can tell from the evidence so far:
1. The cop was probably legally justified in pulling the trigger despite us not liking the outcome.
2. The DA is blatantly lying about a number of things (for instance that the cop kicked the dying guy, and he's calling a taser a deadly weapon in one case but not in another one just weeks apart), which makes his charges suspect to me.
3. The decision to escalate the situation to violence was 100% on Brooks.

Pb

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2020, 09:55:37 AM »
I saw the video.

It looked like self-defense to me.  It looked like the deceased was pointing the tazer at the cop a second or two before he got shot.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2020, 10:19:46 AM »
[1] Some taser have two shots before reverting to contact mode, so the deceased MAY have had another shot
[2] While we, the after action guys watching on video, know there were 2 cops, the police officer who fired had no idea as to the state of the other officer that he had left on the ground.
[3] He did have the taser, which he then holstered because in "dueling tasers" you have a much greater chance of losing and then losing your gun and possibly your life.

Every police officer I've seen says they are trained that if a perp attacks with a taser, you respond with a firearm. And that is with good reason.

Your scenarios are offered with the benefit of hindsight and third person view. They do not reflect the data that the police officer making the decision had.

I hold folks using the State's monopoly on force to a higher standard then a lot of people here.  I acknowledge that, but I think our state actors resort to lethal force too quickly, and need to be held to a higher standard than they currently are. I'm sure that every cop you've talked to does say that, but as I have said, it is my opinion they are wrong.  They should NOT automatically go to lethal force when a non lethal weapon is pointed at them. It's a difference of opinion, but when law enforcement is increasingly asking why they are losing community support, perhaps they should pay attention to the communities opinions.

Basically this situation was the result of shitty training and decisions on the police officers parts, and bad decisions on the dead guy's part, all compounding to end in a death.

To be clear for the internet:  I think the DA is way overreaching, I do not think a murder charge is appropriate.  And the other cop getting any charges at all is stupid.  The cop that pulled the trigger probably needs, at minimum, never to be a cop anywhere ion the US, and maybe (after a complete GBI investigation gives all details) a negligent homicide charge.  He killed a guy he didn't have to, and was at least partially in that situation because he was negligent at his job as an officer.  (he and another officer together failed to control both a suspect and their weapons)

You just aren't going to convince me that a guy running away, at 15 ft and opening, with only a non lethal contact weapon, is an imminent threat to anyone's life.  We've alluded to it here before, here, but again for clarity, cops are civilians. They are not an occupying military force.  If a citizen with a concealed carry permit couldn't shoot in that situation, I don't think it's justifiable for a police officer.  Any benefit of the doubt for "Cops have a job to do that puts them in dangerous situations and they may need to have more discretion for killing" has been burned out of me by snipers, MRAPs, No-knocks, buildings burned down, and people shot in the back.  Sorry not sorry.

TommyGunn

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 10:45:03 AM »
I hold folks using the State's monopoly on force to a higher standard then a lot of people here.  I acknowledge that, but I think our state actors resort to lethal force too quickly, and need to be held to a higher standard than they currently are. I'm sure that every cop you've talked to does say that, but as I have said, it is my opinion they are wrong.  They should NOT automatically go to lethal force when a non lethal weapon is pointed at them. It's a difference of opinion, but when law enforcement is increasingly asking why they are losing community support, perhaps they should pay attention to the communities opinions.

Basically this situation was the result of shitty training and decisions on the police officers parts, and bad decisions on the dead guy's part, all compounding to end in a death.

To be clear for the internet:  I think the DA is way overreaching, I do not think a murder charge is appropriate.  And the other cop getting any charges at all is stupid.  The cop that pulled the trigger probably needs, at minimum, never to be a cop anywhere ion the US, and maybe (after a complete GBI investigation gives all details) a negligent homicide charge.  He killed a guy he didn't have to, and was at least partially in that situation because he was negligent at his job as an officer.  (he and another officer together failed to control both a suspect and their weapons)

You just aren't going to convince me that a guy running away, at 15 ft and opening, with only a non lethal contact weapon, is an imminent threat to anyone's life.  We've alluded to it here before, here, but again for clarity, cops are civilians. They are not an occupying military force.  If a citizen with a concealed carry permit couldn't shoot in that situation, I don't think it's justifiable for a police officer.  Any benefit of the doubt for "Cops have a job to do that puts them in dangerous situations and they may need to have more discretion for killing" has been burned out of me by snipers, MRAPs, No-knocks, buildings burned down, and people shot in the back.  Sorry not sorry.

From what I've heard,  the tazer is not (a) a contact weapon, and (b) not "non-lethal."   It can be a contact weapon, or atleast  some models can be,  but the one Brooks grabbed fired barbs.  In many states,  including Georgia apparently,  police officers are completely within their rights to use firearms in instances where their ... "less-than-lethal"  weapon  (tazer)  has  been stolen by a criminal and courts have so ruled. Tazers can potentially kill despite their supposed "less-than-lethal" status.
This does NOT make police an occupying army.   A criminal armed with a tazer is an imminent threat to an officer as it must be considered reasonable to think he might use the tazer to immobilize an officer to grab a firearm.  In fact this is the justification to use deadly force.
I don't particularly like the Brooks shooting.  It does make me uncomfortable .... but in the end he precipitated the actions when  he fought with the cops and ran, stealing the taser.  If one doesn't like this,  the approach should be to change the pertinent laws  and adapt police procedures to the change.  
And be prepared for the police to react in accord to the changes.
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cordex

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2020, 11:45:15 AM »
From what I've heard,  the tazer is not (a) a contact weapon, and (b) not "non-lethal."   It can be a contact weapon, or atleast  some models can be,  but the one Brooks grabbed fired barbs.
Dogmush's point is that once the barbs are expended it becomes a contact-only weapon.  It is a valid point.

Tazers can potentially kill despite their supposed "less-than-lethal" status.
If it were that serious a threat then they wouldn't tase every cop that carries one.  But they do.  Or at least around here they do.

A criminal armed with a tazer is an imminent threat to an officer as it must be considered reasonable to think he might use the tazer to immobilize an officer to grab a firearm.  In fact this is the justification to use deadly force.
Again, dogmush's point is that once the cartridge is expended, the ability to immobilize the officer using the taser has disappeared.

I don't particularly like the Brooks shooting.  It does make me uncomfortable ....
It's called "lawful but awful".  I still don't view it as a bad shoot as dogmush may, but it also isn't a shoot I'm happy with.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2020, 12:24:39 PM »
From what I've heard,  the tazer is not (a) a contact weapon, and (b) not "non-lethal."   It can be a contact weapon, or atleast  some models can be,  but the one Brooks grabbed fired barbs.  In many states,  including Georgia apparently,  police officers are completely within their rights to use firearms in instances where their ... "less-than-lethal"  weapon  (tazer)  has  been stolen by a criminal and courts have so ruled. Tazers can potentially kill despite their supposed "less-than-lethal" status.
This does NOT make police an occupying army.   A criminal armed with a tazer is an imminent threat to an officer as it must be considered reasonable to think he might use the tazer to immobilize an officer to grab a firearm.  In fact this is the justification to use deadly force.
I don't particularly like the Brooks shooting.  It does make me uncomfortable .... but in the end he precipitated the actions when  he fought with the cops and ran, stealing the taser.  If one doesn't like this,  the approach should be to change the pertinent laws  and adapt police procedures to the change.  
And be prepared for the police to react in accord to the changes.

I disagree.  I am not a lawyer or DA.  I also understand fully what current jurisprudence in the US is, as well as SOP.  I disagree with them.

If I were on a jury for this cop and was offered something reasonable (not murder) I might find him guilty. That's the point.  Law Enforcement in the US has progressed to the point that basically law abiding, normal ish folks are starting to openly disagree with their tactics and policies.  I said in another thread, I can still support individual officers that I know, but I find it hard to support "Law Enforcement" as it currently is.  Perhaps if this kind of "on the edge" thing were a one off it'd be different, but it's not.

Again, I understand a lot of the intricacies of the laws and policies surrounding this kind of use of force.  I understand that APD's policies treat an expended Taser as deadly force by itself (unless the officer is using it).  I find that policy unreasonable, and won't support a department, or officer, that shields themselves with it.  Which in a wider sense is how we got to where we are in a lot of the country right now.  Not the rioting, but the growing lack of community support of, and trust in, Law Enforcement in general.

Bluntly, cops need people like me more than I need them, and they know it or they wouldn't be so upset over the whole social media "vilifying cops" trend.  And just repeating that shooting guy that is running away in the back because he has a [fine] "Less-lethal" weapon is OK and reasonable is not how you win fans back.

Again: I realize that what I am saying we should hold LEO's to for use of force is both WAY more restrictive than historically, and will introduce more danger to both the officer, and potentially the community (in the form of more criminals getting away).  OK.  Fine.  I'm OK with that.  I would RATHER have a society that lays the danger at the feet of the paid agents that volunteered for the job than the folks who have been scooped up in an encounter they did not initiate, and can not end.  If cops don't like the risk they can quit.

As I said they burned through any good will I had towards, and trust in, the institution of law enforcement in the last 30 years.

As always YMMV, and that's OK.  I also think it's important that we maintain the distinction between legal and reasonable.  The officer may well have been legal when he pulled the trigger.  I don't believe he was reasonable.

Bad News Network had an interesting discussion on this last week.  Nick give law enforcement a little more slack than I cut them, but it's an interesting take on some of the officer's failing that helped turn the situation trajic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbJ3QVmP7Is

Pb

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Re: Looks like Atlanta is next
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2020, 12:24:45 PM »
I looked at the video again.  The deceased was pointing the taser at the police approximately two seconds before he fell.  I am not sure at what point he got shot (can't listen to audio, and I don't even know if the video has audio of gunshots):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHecVdUysQ

From pointing a weapon at the police to hitting the ground in two seconds.  At some point he did shoot the taser at the cops, though I have no idea at what point in the video that is.

I'm not seeing any fault in the police here.