Author Topic: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition  (Read 4585 times)

MillCreek

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I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« on: June 22, 2020, 05:50:59 PM »
https://www.startribune.com/at-urging-of-police-hennepin-emts-subdued-dozens-with-powerful-sedative/485607381/

Ketamine does have a role for very combative or excited delirium patients, but some of these cases sure sound more like unnecessary chemical restraints done at the behest of the police to me.  If this was happening in the hospital, an incident report and case review would be done for each ketamine use for this reason.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2020, 07:42:02 PM »
K-hole for e'rybody!  Have been told the hallucinations can be mentally traumatic, can anyone confirm/deny?

cordex

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lee n. field

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2020, 09:06:28 PM »
K-hole for e'rybody!  Have been told the hallucinations can be mentally traumatic, can anyone confirm/deny?

John Lilly, the dolphin researcher, did ketamine.  IRRC.  (Try and find his autobiography sometimes.  He was a nut.)
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dogmush

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2020, 09:57:49 AM »
https://www.startribune.com/at-urging-of-police-hennepin-emts-subdued-dozens-with-powerful-sedative/485607381/

Ketamine does have a role for very combative or excited delirium patients, but some of these cases sure sound more like unnecessary chemical restraints done at the behest of the police to me.  If this was happening in the hospital, an incident report and case review would be done for each ketamine use for this reason.

Do we know if they are still doing it, or did they stop in 2018?

BobR

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2020, 10:25:54 AM »
We used to use it to put kids in the K-hole if we had to manipulate broken bones or other very painful procedures. With just a whiff of an opioid  and a little ketamine you would not only sedate them but it would give some pretty significant pain relief (analgesic effect of the two combined). Of course this was in an ER with monitors, staff and lots of support. I find it hard to believe that Minneapolis EMS has been using it in the field since 2008. I don't know who thought that one up but it sounds like a protocol that got started and never reviewed or removed. To me the variables would be too great in the field and it would not be something I would consider doing. 

bob

Pb

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2020, 01:01:12 PM »
K-hole for e'rybody!  Have been told the hallucinations can be mentally traumatic, can anyone confirm/deny?

I was given "something" prior to a medical procedure when I was a child.  It made me hallucinate; I've always wondered if it was ketamine.

It made me see this woman in our kitchen, no joke:



I wasn't particularly traumatized though.  Maybe I should have been?   ??? 

It seemed kind of funny at the time.

just Warren

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MechAg94

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2020, 04:13:59 PM »
I was given "something" prior to a medical procedure when I was a child.  It made me hallucinate; I've always wondered if it was ketamine.

It made me see this woman in our kitchen, no joke:



I wasn't particularly traumatized though.  Maybe I should have been?   ??? 

It seemed kind of funny at the time.
Did you try to take her to the train station?
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MechAg94

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2020, 04:17:14 PM »
So after a quick look at the article, maybe Minneapolis should dump their police department.  Fire everyone, dissolve the local union, delete and shred all the procedures.  Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch.  No rehires of anyone from the top down.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

230RN

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2020, 06:17:29 PM »
Well, that kind of sounds like the same kind of slash-and-burn thinking that the antifas and violent protesters are using.  Satisfying in a vengeful way, but counterproductiive.

"Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch."

Who do  you think would be the first applicants?  I'll tell you who:  the very antifas and "peaceful" protesters who started all this stuff and want to "progress" in a "new direction."


just Warren

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Perd Hapley

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2020, 11:44:22 PM »
Well, that kind of sounds like the same kind of slash-and-burn thinking that the antifas and violent protesters are using.  Satisfying in a vengeful way, but counterproductiive.

"Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch."

Who do  you think would be the first applicants?  I'll tell you who:  the very antifas and "peaceful" protesters who started all this stuff and want to "progress" in a "new direction."


How many of those guys would pass the background check, or make it through the academy?
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2020, 12:56:07 AM »
So after a quick look at the article, maybe Minneapolis should dump their police department.  Fire everyone, dissolve the local union, delete and shred all the procedures.  Then find some capable people to start a new department from scratch.  No rehires of anyone from the top down.

That would require those in control to not be corrupt.  The parasites will never leave a living host.

lee n. field

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2020, 08:30:50 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain

PDs must get the body cams from some cheezy Chinatronic Ebay vendor.  Not very reliable.</sarc>
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2020, 09:25:12 AM »
How many of those guys would pass the background check, or make it through the academy?
.
Background checks and training are racist dog-whistles you disgusting bigot.
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fifth_column

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2020, 10:01:58 AM »
How many of those guys would pass the background check, or make it through the academy?

I'm sure they'd set up their own academy.  I picture it looking a lot like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs
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MechAg94

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2020, 10:27:35 AM »
That would require those in control to not be corrupt.  The parasites will never leave a living host.
Yeah, I doubt it would work out very well, especially with the current mayor. 
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Blakenzy

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2020, 08:53:44 AM »
Thinking about it, the fact that there are no heavily scrutinized licensing procedures to practice "law enforcement" is pretty crazy. Being a cop is treated more like a summer job than a position of huge responsibility and authority.

And they have a say in forcefully administering drugs to people  ;/

Low-level standards and entry requirements for candidates + high level of on-job authority and power + near-zero oversight and accountability = apparently the best idea evaaaar!!! according to the justice system  :facepalm:

So yeah, a full teardown and reconstruction is necessary.
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cordex

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2020, 09:16:19 AM »
Thinking about it, the fact that there are no heavily scrutinized licensing procedures to practice "law enforcement" is pretty crazy. Being a cop is treated more like a summer job than a position of huge responsibility and authority.
Fascinating.  Tell me more about your understanding of LEO training and continuing education.

And they have a say in forcefully administering drugs to people  ;/
As far as I can tell they can ask, but it is up to the medic/doc to make the determination of necessity.

Blakenzy

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2020, 09:44:22 AM »
Well, explain to me what licensing is required to do law enforcement.


"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

TommyGunn

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2020, 10:23:39 AM »
Well, explain to me what licensing is required to do law enforcement.


Isn't certification required?  There are police academies,  though I have to believe many small departments can't afford them.

Note:  I'm not against better police training and education -- in fact it's probably the one thing that might really help reduce bad police behaviour aside from better vetting of police employees.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2020, 10:32:04 AM »
Fascinating.  Tell me more about your understanding of LEO training and continuing education.
As far as I can tell they can ask, but it is up to the medic/doc to make the determination of necessity.

And if this hadn't been widely publicized...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospital_incident

The cop that did this is still working in "law enforcement"
Quote
On October 11, 2019, former police detective Jeff Payne filed a suit against the Salt Lake City Police Department, seeking more than $300,000 in damages and claiming that, in 2017, though following the orders of his commanding officer and complying with department policies, he was "wrongfully terminated."[39] Payne had been hired in August 2019 by the Weber County Sheriff's Office

Sure it all worked out in the courts in the end but it damn well should never have happened in the first place

We need a higher level of accountability for police misdeeds than we have now.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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dogmush

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2020, 11:28:09 AM »

Isn't certification required?  There are police academies,  though I have to believe many small departments can't afford them.

Note:  I'm not against better police training and education -- in fact it's probably the one thing that might really help reduce bad police behaviour aside from better vetting of police employees.

A quick Google would make it seem like each state has it's own accreditation exam and decides what is on it.  Agencies (and sometimes states) run training camps that average between 12 and 14 weeks, 40 hrs a week, and then the cadets take the test.  Smaller agencies can piggyback on other agency's academies. 

cordex

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Re: I can't breathe: forcible ketamine injection edition
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2020, 11:41:47 AM »
Well, explain to me what licensing is required to do law enforcement.
There is a variety of licensing and certification that applies to law enforcement.  Different roles, states, and localities have different requirements and probably use different names, but there is typically academy certification, peace officer basic training certification, regularly renewed formal certification to operate various pieces of equipment (EVO for operating the vehicles, PBT, qualification and tactics for firearms/less lethal, etc) or perform certain duties (K9, training, DRE, SWAT, etc) to say nothing of regular training in defensive tactics, law changes, etc.

Just asked a friend what his yearly training looked like.  His minimum annual formal training requirement is over 200 hours.  In 2018 he logged well in excess of 300 hours, but in reality had much more than that because he can only count half of his K9 training for pay.  He's a bit of an outlier because K9 has more training time than your average cop, but it's not what you claim.

Not saying there is not room for improvement, but pretending that it is - as you say - "more like a summer job" is either ignorant or intentional prevarication.

We need a higher level of accountability for police misdeeds than we have now.
Police need to be held to an extremely high standard, and when they screw up severely (as in that Utah incident) they need to be dealt with severely.  When that doesn't happen it damages public trust.  I see the public sector unions and the protections they offer as a significant portion of that problem.

The flip side is that not all complaints against police are legitimate and police need to be protected both from false accusations and political grandstanding.  When that doesn't happen, it forces the best, most capable officers out.